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Sorry, mgnv, I wasn't clear. Yes, that's exactly what I meant in fact --

"The original record will be at Hackney (or whichever office now holds the Hackney records given any subsequent redistricting). The GRO holds a copy, and there are ocassionally differences in the two records."

-- the original record at Hackney. Ta!

EVIE Re your post: 8th January 2009 22:36
"I'm not quite sure how these things work, but can the original record -- the thing with the volume and page number -- be checked?"

The record at the GRO (which is what the GRO index with its "Hackney - 1b - 763" type reference refers to) is not the original record. The original record will be at Hackney (or whichever office now holds the Hackney records given any subsequent redistricting). The GRO holds a copy, and there are ocassionally differences in the two records.

I don't know zip about mlitary records, I'm afraid, at least not after WWI.

Try searching this site (go first to Boards Summary and use the search box) for, say,

military records

and browse what you get. Best I can do, I'm afraid. There should be threads on Tips or Records with info.

I have taken the advice, and sent a message to the two members, so lets see what that uncovers - so thanks again for the help.

We have now searched for the death of Rosa Rodgers, as Rodgers, Panzer, Panser and Pansie and can not find her anywhere, we have found a Rosa Rodgers who died in 1984 in Sheffield who according to the index record was born in Mar 1885, a year out for our Rosa, but scary given that we live in Sheffield, and Bill was only ever told his mum died so it may not be factually correct!!

Any tips on closing this loop?

Can you help with how we can locate records for Armyn's prison stretch, as we are not sure where to start?

Lorraine, have you considered contacting the two GR members who have Hermann Panzer 1889 and Basil Panzer 1915 in their trees?

They could be distantly related (say, descended from a sibling of Dora Rossiter or some such), but they might actually be descendants of Hermann via his first marriage/son. Why not inquire?

Might Sylvia have been a fair bit younger than Armyn?


Name: Sylvia Madge Palmer
Birth Date: 12 Jan 1908
Death Registration Month/Year: Feb 1998
Age at death (estimated): 90
Registration district: Sutton
Inferred County: Surrey
Register number: B10B
District and Subdistrict: 2541B
Entry Number: 298


One would think it's a fairly unusual combination of given names, not to mention combined with Palmer.

Births Mar 1908
Horne Sylvia Madge Thanet 2a 1093


No one at GR seems to have her in their tree.

Goodness, you never know -- one of my gr-grandmothers was a Horne from Kent ... !


I would think it likely that Sylvia had been married before marrying Armyn, since she would been in her 40s at the time of the marriage.

Can anybody tell me the best way to locate prison records for Armyn Roland Palmer

Thank you for all the input as it is making our theory that Herma Roland Panzer and Armyn Roland Palmer are one and the same - although don't think we will be able to actually prove that.

A couple of other threads we would apprecuate help/advice on following, Bill knows as he believes he visited Armyn Roland in prison for stealing a typewriter, although seems quite a harsh punishment.
Armyn also married a lady called Sylvia Madge in around the early mid 50's as Bill recalls the wedding and my husband did know Sylvia. We don't have her maiden name and although we have searched index after index unless we are missing the obvious we cannot find the registration.

Can you help with prison trail or possible 3rd wedding thread?

http://genforum.genealogy.com/panzer/messages/8.html

William Christian Panzer born London 1877, parents Hermann C. Panzer (born Germany c.1829) and Barbara Allen Strathearn (born Scotland 1847) married London 1875 also Carl Hermann Panzer (born Germany C1831)wife Amelia Sophia Tolle married London 1869.

A message from 2000. Carl Hermann Panzer was the father of Carl/Charles George Panzer, the father of Hermann Roland Panzer.

See the reply from Pamela. The person asking the question was singularly unforthcoming, but Pamela is descended from William.

Hermann Christian Panzer 1829 and Carl Hermann Panzer 1831 would be brothers, as I reckon. But that's just a calculation.

If so, William Christian Panzer 1877 and Charles/Carl George Panzer, father of Hermann Roland Panzer, would be first cousins, although very different in age.

!!

Google Basil Panzer!


An Improved Electromagnetic Sphygmograph
BASIL I. PANZER, FRANCIS MARSH BALDWIN, FRED INGALL, and JOHN F. HEIL
Science 17 October 1947: 376.
PDF »|


Basil I Panzer is the person on the electoral roll 2001-2007, who has a current telephone listing.

Now, that Basil publishing in 1947 has to be the Basil born in 1915, not his son.

So I think the "Basil T" in the GRO is another of those misreads.


But this could be a son ... or a coincidence ... If it's a son, it could be who the telephone listing is ... Yes, that does seem to be the case; Basil 1915 was a scientist, and the younger Basil (who may or may not be related) is a psychotherapist.


Resolving Traumatic Memories: Metaphors and Symbols in Psychotherapy.
co-written with Basil Panzer
(Irvington, New York, 1989)
- Hard Cover book
- 2 x audio cassettes
NOTE: The book has been translated into German.


(Panzer is a London based psychologist who supervises psychotherapists and, in private practice, specializes in brief, solution oriented psychotherapy and hypnotherapy. Fluent in several languages, he treats French, German, Italian and American as well as English patients. In 1989, Irvington Publishers, Inc. published his book, Resolving Traumatic Memories: Metaphors and Symbols in Psychotherapy.) -- B.I. (Basil) Panzer, Ph.D

PMed contact info for [Basil Panzer Jr.?]

Two people here at GR have Dora Rossiter 1882 in their trees.

And dang, I thought I'd checked it before -- I think I had "Cecil" in my head: the same two people have Basil Panzer 1915 in their trees.

Well yikes -- I thought I'd checked *that*: the same two people have Herman Panzer 1889 in their trees.

And someone else has Carl Panzer 1829 in his tree.

I mean, not bigamy. But divorce. Almost as good. ;)


So Hermann Roland Panzer married Dora Georgina Rossiter 1912.
Son Basil T Panzer was born 1915.
Dora divorced Hermann 1916.
Hermann married Rosa 1917.

William George Roland Palmer and/or "Pansie" was born 1919.

Hermann's middle name was Roland.
Hermann's father's middle name was George.

It isn't a closed link in the chain yet, but it's a danged strong partial one. ;)

Look what I found in the National Archives.


Records of the Supreme Court of Judicature and related courts
Division within J Records of the Family Division and predecessors
J 77 Court for Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, later Supreme Court of Judicature: Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Files
Subseries within J 77
J 77/1231

Record Summary
Scope and content

Divorce Court File: 7474.
Appellant: Dora Georgina Panzer.
Respondent: Herman Roland Panzer.
Type: Wife's petition for divorce [wd].
Covering dates 1916
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by
The National Archives, Kew


Yes yes yes!

Hermann Roland Panzer's father was "Charles George" Panzer born in Soho (per 1901), who was actually Carl Georg Panzer, born in Saxony.

So this would be him, if it is credible (it's submitted by an anonymous Mormon):


Carl Panzner Pedigree
Birth: About 1830 Glauchau, , Zwickau, Sachsen
Marriage: 1857 Glauchau, , Zwickau, Sachsen


and these would be his parents:


Carl Panzner
Birth: About 1830 Glauchau, , Zwickau, Sachsen
Spouse: Clara Hedwig Graesser
Marriage: 1857 Glauchau, , Zwickau, Sachsen

Clicking on Clara's name at the LDS site gets you her parents, but that's as far back as it goes.

Marriages Mar 1860 (>99%)
Emmens Emma Colchester 4a 253
Rodgers John Colchester 4a 253

This looooks like the unreadable surname of m in law on 1861 census.

1841 Address: Marksbury, Marksbury
RODGERS, Charlotte F 45 1796 Somerset
RODGERS, Louisa F 16 1825 Somerset
RODGERS, John M 13 1828 Somerset
RODGERS, Selina F 10 1831 Somerset
RODGERS, Silvey F 8 1833 Somerset
RODGERS, George M 6 1835 Somerset
RODGERS, Thomas M 4 1837 Somerset
RODGERS, William M 1 1840 Somerset

Christine - I have the impression that Lorraine knows all about Rosa Rodgers since she is in touch with members of her family. Lorraine?

Also with him in 1861 are his wife Emma daughter Charlotte age unclear and mother in law Sarah.

Births Sep 1882
Rossiter Dora Georgina Fulham 1a 249


Charles George Panzer's parents deaths:

Name: Amelie Sophia Panzer
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 77
District: St Pancras (1902-1977)
County: Greater London, London
Volume: 1b
Page: 53

Name: Karl Hermann Panzer
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 79
District: Hackney
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 210


Same year, same quarter, different district. A Hackney connection, though.