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Hi, I 'm trying to find out information regarding William Green who was born C1802 of Warrington, Lancashire (now in Cheshire). He married Mary, (surname unknown) of Prescot. Him and his family were living in Holt, Flintshire going by census records 1851, 1871 and 1881, 1841 and 1861 census records are missing for that area. William died in 1882 aged 80, his wife Mary died 1880 aged 74 and are both buried at Holt Cemetery. On all records, it stated William's occupation as being a Glass and China Dealer. I have looked to see if there were any glass factories in Warrington around the 1840's but there don't seem to be any. However, Pilkington Glass is near Prescot where Mary originated from and I'm thinking perhaps he had been taken on as an apprentice where he learnt his trade. Would anyone happen to know if there are any apprentice records around and if so, where would I be able to obtain this information from. Any help would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you.

I would imagine that being a dealer meant selling it rather than making it and therefore an apprenticeship wouldn't be required.
Apprenticeships were generally for the trades.........ie. Potter, blacksmith, shoemaker etc. and not for those who just sold the goods on.

Could this be him?

Baptisms: 11 Apr 1802 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
William Green - Son of Michael Green & Betty
Occupation: Labourer
Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 235, Entry 7965
Source: LDS Film 1562957

Dea x

Hi Thanks Astra, I didn't think of that. I just assumed he may have been trained rather than dealing in the sale of glass. Silly me. As for the reply from Dea, it is a possibility this baptism could be William's, but as the names of his children were William (c1849) and Mary (c1843) and nothing to do with Michael and Betty which normally parents names were handed down to their children, I had put this onto one side. As I haven't been able to find out William's wife Mary's surname, no marriage found as yet due to too many entries, I have ground down to a halt. However, I have applied for William's and Mary's death certificates in the hope that Mary's maiden name may be present (highly unlikely, but am keeping my fingers crossed). Many thanks again for your help

It would be better to buy one of the children's birth certs.

Ozi

For example:
Births Mar 1844
GREEN Mary Wrexham 27 301

Hi Ozi, That entry doesn't seem to fit in. However, I noticed entries on Northwalesbmd for baptisms of
Mary 1840 Malpas ML/1/98
William 1849 Malpas ML/5/19
very strange considering on the 1851 census the father William had written birth place being Holt for his children and not Malpas which is in Cheshire. Also strange that the certificates can be obtained from Wrexham Record Office and not Chester. I have the parish baptism records for the above children
Mary Bapt 17/4/1843 Holt Parish
William Bapt 1/4/1849 Holt Parish
The above Mary presumed to have died before 1861 as she does not appear on the census. She also had two other siblings Mary Bapt 1/6/1840 Holt who was buried 10/1/1841 age 17 months and Jane Bapt 3/1/1847 Holt, buried 5/5/1847 age 5 months. So by the looks of things there was only one surviving child, William, very sad. I will have to write to Wrexham Record Office and hope the Birth entries are the correct one's. Thank you again for all your help and I will let you know how I get on.

I would think that this is the likely birth ref for 'your' Mary:

Births Mar 1843
Green Mary Wrexham 27 276

The cert would give mothers maiden name and so help you to find the marriage.

Dea x

Thanks Dea, Look's as though I'm going to have to go down that route. Have received death certificate's of parents William and Mary Green. William died of Bronchitis 15 days, Exhaustion and Mary "Died by the visitation of God". Inquest held 8/6/1880 Borough of Holt.( No mention of maiden name) I'm hoping there may be some more info in the local newspaper about her. Trip to the archives again is called for. Shall keep you up to date on any info I find.

Hi all, it's me again. Have now got a copy of William's birth certficate (born 21/3/1849 at Holt) , son of William and wait for it, Mary Green, late BURGESS Formerly PHYTHIAN. (very unusual name) There is a marriage entry on Lancashirebmd for 1845 at Warrington, St. Ethin. Strange, why did William and Mary marry so late and out of the area and not in Holt where their children were born and baptised? I wonder whether they were trying to hide something. I suppose I will have to wait for the copy of the Marriage to reveal anything else. Shall let you know. Thanks

Hi Sharon,

I 'think' I may have found Mary's first marriage?

Marriage: 21 Feb 1825 St. Laurence, Chorley, Lancashire, England
Joseph Burgess - (X), Poller Bachelor of Chorley .. (should say Potter!!)
Mary Fethyon - (X), Spinster of Chorley
Witness: Thomas Ward; Elisabeth Nightingale, (X)
Married by Banns by: Oliver Cooper
Register: Marriage 1813 - 1827, Page 252, Entry 754
Source: LDS Film 93705

.........................

If the marriage is correct, she appears to have had at least 1 child :

Baptisms: 17 Mar 1837 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Joseph Burgess - Son of Joseph Burgess & Mary
Abode: James Street
Occupation: Potter
Baptised by: Geo Richards Curate
Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1838, Page 116, Entry 922
Source: LDS Film 1532962

Unfortunately, I can't locate any of them on 1841 yet and I have to go out soon so perhaps someone else may be able to find them?

It could be that she married William late because Joseph was still around?

If we could trace any of them for certain on 1841, we may be able to get a bit further.

Dea x

??????????????????? - Probable for Mary ???

Baptisms: 14 Apr 1805 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Mary Phythian - Daughter of Thomas Phythian & Eliz.
Born: 6 Mar 1805
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Register: Baptisms 1766 - 1809, Page 179, Entry 48
Source: LDS Film 1657583 item 8

.....................

siblings:

Baptisms: 3 Jul 1803 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Margaret Phythian - Daughter of Thomas Phythian & Eliz.
Born: 26 May 1803
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Register: Baptisms 1766 - 1809, Page 171, Entry 17
Source: LDS Film 1657583 item 8

Baptisms: 14 Apr 1805 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Mary Phythian - Daughter of Thomas Phythian & Eliz.
Born: 6 Mar 1805
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Register: Baptisms 1766 - 1809, Page 179, Entry 48
Source: LDS Film 1657583 item 8

Baptisms: 17 May 1807 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Ann Phythian - Daughter of Thomas Phythian & Eliz.
Born: 23 Mar 1807
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Register: Baptisms 1766 - 1809, Page 190, Entry 18
Source: LDS Film 1657583 item 8

Baptisms: 21 May 1809 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Edward Phythian - Son of Thomas Phythian & Eliz.
Born: 23 Mar 1809
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Register: Baptisms 1766 - 1809, Page 201, Entry 25
Source: LDS Film 1657583 item 8

Baptisms: 10 Mar 1811 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Thomas Phythian - Son of Thomas Phythian & Elizth
Born: 24 Jan 1811
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Source: LDS Film 1657583

Baptisms: 25 Dec 1813 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Phythian - Daughter of Thomas Phythian & Elizabeth
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: John Kirby
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1822, Page 29, Entry 227
Source: LDS Film 1657583 item 10

Baptisms: 25 Aug 1816 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
James Phythian - Son of Thomas Phythian & Elizabeth
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: CGT Driffield - Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1822, Page 110, Entry 878
Source: LDS Film 1657583 item 10

.............

Parents marriage?

Marriage: 25 Jul 1802 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
Thomas Phithyan - Carpenter of Farnworth near Prescot
Elizabeth Fairhurst - (X), Spinster of Farnworth near Prescot
Witness: William Scott; Peter Shaw
Married by Banns by: William Thompson - Minister
Register: Marriages 1781 - 1812, Page 160
Source: LDS Film 166235 item 4

Dea x

possible death of Joseph Burgess

Burial: 17 Apr 1837 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Joseph Burgess -
Age: 33
Abode: Sutton
Buried by: George Slade
Register: Burials1836 - 1846, Page 16, Entry 125
Source: LDS Film 51568

I saw that death too Lancashireann but I was hoping to find one round about 1845 leaving Mary then free to marry William.

Dratt !!!

Dea x

can't find another Joseph death. Maybe she just waited until the child was older to marry again

Wow, you have all been busy and so have I, with all the info you have provided. I went to Chester Record Office today after finding out they have copies of the Parish Registers for Warrington. This is what I can confirm
Marriage:
Michael Green of this Parish (St. Ephin, Warrington) and Betty Hamblet also of this Parish were married in this church by Banns this sixteenth day of July in the Year One Thousand Seven Hundred and Eighty Six by me J. Saul, Curate. This marriage was solemnised between us (mark of) Michael Green and Betty Hamblet in the Presence of (mark of) Willm. Rigby and Wm. Arrowsmith(signed)
BAPTISMS FOR THE FOLLOWING CHILDREN:
MF 199/3 Warrington St. Ephin Baptism Parish Records

25-5-1787 Richard son of Michael Green Labourer and Betty his wife
5-9-1788 Elizabeth Ellen Daughter of
12-9-1790 John son of
9-12-1792 Mary Daughter of
4-6-1797 Michael son of (died before next Michael was born)
2-3-1800 Michael son of
11-4-1802 WILLIAM Son of (my William married to Mary Burgess, nee Phythian)
MARRIAGE (St Ephin, Warrington)

8th September 1845 William Green, aged 41, a Widower, Profession Earthenware Dealer Living at Buck St, Warrington. Father-
Michael Green Deceased
Mary Burgess aged 40 a Widower Profession Earthenware Dealer Living at Buck St, Warrington. Father -Thomas Phythian, a Joiner
The marriage solemnized by John Janson and Mary Woods (mark of) in the presence of (mark of) Nancy Sparks and (signed) Samuel Spencer

As for all the other info you have all provided me regarding the siblings of Mary Phythian, I will have to get in contact with Lancashire Record Office and see if they can forward me copies of the Baptism entries to confirm as it is too far for me to travel. So I say a great big thank you to you all for your help and wish you all a very merry Christmas and prosperous New Year. If I can help in return anytime, please let me know
Thank you again
Sharon

p.s I think the family had arrived in Holt, Denbighshire by 1841 and that is why we can't find them anywhere as the 1841 census is missing for that area. Let's hope that someone someday may come across the missing pieces so we can all fill the gaps in.
Sharon

Sharon - those baptism entries that Dea has given you for the Phythian family are the entries as they would be seen in the parish register in the Lancs record office. They have been transcribed on the site lan-opc.org.uk. So any contact with the LRO would just give you the same information.

Dea has also given you the parish register transcript of her 1st marriage to Joseph Burgess and his subsequent death.

2 more possible children of Michael & betty

Baptisms: 16 Feb 1806 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
James Green - Son of Michael Green & Betty
Occupation: Mugman
Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 274, Entry 9815
Source: LDS Film 1562957

Baptisms: 22 May 1814 St Elphins, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Mary Green - Daughter of Michael Green & Betty
Abode: Battersby Lane
Occupation: Potter
Baptised by: J Topping Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1818, Page 81, Entry 644
Source: LDS Film 1562959

Many thanks again, It save's me a phone call. So I would presume the info from Dea does tie in with Mary Phynian/Burgess and that we have the right family. Gosh, there's a bit of a gap with the last child of Michael and Betty, Betty must have been knocking on a bit. I wonder whether this child may have been a grandchild and they adopted her, perhaps. Again, only assuming. Well, I've got quite a bit to go on, won't have time for Christmas this year. Thanks again, I really appreciate the info
Sharon