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I've seen this on a couple of certificates now. On my Gran's birth certificate it says her Father's profession was a 'lime & cerment carmen' .. does anyone know what this means? Most people I've asked, say it's refering to having to 'drive a car'.. any information would help.

Kind Regards
Rachel

What makes you doubt the people you have asked? Even before motor cars were invented, drivers were still needed for various vehicles and they were referred to as carmen:

Driver of (horse-drawn) vehicles for transporting goods. Carmen were often employed by railway companies for local deliveries and collections of goods and parcels. Modern day van driver. A Carter typically drove a light two wheeled carriage. Also sometimes someone who drove horse-drawn trams was called a Carman.

Men who came off the farms due to mechanisation often ended up in London and other cities as carmen, because of their experience with horses on the farms. My grandfather came from Cambridgeshire to Croydon and would have no skills for another job.

Well, driving a horsedrawn cart wasn't really "driving a car". ;)

This looks definitive:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~carman/occupation.htm

... this is a description of the English use of 'carman' as an occupation. The term was also used in 17c New York where carmen had specified responsibilities for maintaining roads. A carman was a delivery driver usually working for an employer. Could possibly be self-employed doing general haulage with his own horse and covered cart or wagon but these were mostly called 'carriers'. The Worshipful Company of Carmen was formed in 1516, to have the monopoly of plying for hire as carriers in the City. The Company would licence the vehicles, arrange where vehicles could stand awaiting custom and decide the rates to be charged. The livery colours are white and red, and a history of the Company (The Worshipful Company of Carmen by Eric Bennett, 1952) Records surviving at the Guildhall Library run from the 1660s to the late 20th century - the Court Minutes are the longest run, and some of the other records only cover very limited periods - lists of Freemen are only available up to the 18th Century, for example. In later time, a person may describe himself as a Carman, when he means that this is his trade, but if he is an employee within a large firm is most likely not to be a member of the Livery Company. The use of Carman (Master), or Master Carman probably indicates that the person is the proprietor of a firm of carriers, who may, therefore, (but not necessarily) be a member of the Livery Company.



There are other links at that site probably worth investigating if you're curious, too. (Ignore the references to North America, where it had a different usage.)

I've wondered too, so now I know!

Sam, it's not that doubted the people I spoke to. I needed to check my sources. Nothing worse then following a lead that turns out to be a dead end, and you need to start all over again. Thanks for your information.

And thank you too choirman, I'll look into the farm info. Because I don't think her Father was originally from London, her parents got married in Northampton. Might be a clue as to where he's a originally from, or of course they could have just wanted to get out of the city.

Nice find Evie! My baby Niece is named Evie, so I knew that name could never fail me! hehe A wealth of knowledge. Thank you for the link. I have a lot of reading to do and many leads now, thank you to you all.

And thank you to the person who messaged me to let me know all these kind people replied! You know who you are! (^_^)

Kind Regards
Rachel