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I'm hoping someone can help me here, as I have been at a complete stand-still with this for at least 6 years! My gg Grandfather, Charles Smith (seaman - merchant service), married Jane Divers in 1863, aged 21 in Port Glasgow, Scotland. His parents were given as James Smith, surgeon Danish Royal Navy and Hansine Andersen (deceased).
Charles and his wife had 3 children together, John b 1865, Charles b 1869 in Glasgow, and Jane b1873 - all born in Scotland. The youngest and eldest both died in infancy - apparently only my g Grandfather Charles survived. GG grandfather Charles Smith does not appear in any other records in Scotland that I have been able to find - no census records,no birth or death records & he was never the informant on any of his children's birth or death records (presumably because he was away at sea).
In the 1881 census G Grandfather Charles appears to be boarding with a neighbour in Port Glasgow but I can't locate his mother- I'm guessing his father Charles Smith was no longer part of the family unit by then, for whatever reason. I recently found the death entry for Jane Smith or Divers - she died, widow of Charles Smith, in the City Poorhouse, Glasgow in 1904. My questions are as follows:

1. Hansine Anders(e)n was most likely Danish, but what about James Smith? And, if he isn't Danish, why was he serving in the Danish Royal Navy?
2. Was Charles Smith Danish/ Scottish (unlikely as no birth record) /from somewhere completely different?
3. In the absence of a death record for Charles Smith, where did he die? Did he die at sea, or did he return to his homeland and die there?

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I thought it best to write all the facts down. I know it's a tall order, but any help or pointers in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,

Gill

this is a tough one - there are so many Hansine Andersons in Norway and Denmark!!! and as for Smith's!!!

Ann

Tell me about it. I'm at the point where I think I'm going to have to hire a Danish genealogist to look into it for me. As well as the names being common, there is the added potential complication that Smith may have originally been Schmit/ Schmidt/ Schmitt.........................!!! I'm keeping everything crossed that someone on here will have an inspired idea - get your thinking cap on Ann :~)

Thanks Sorcha, that's a great idea - I've e-mailed the Mitchell to find out their opening hours. Have you looked at these records before? Do you know what format the records are in - standardised forms or just books. What sort of info did the applicants have to give?

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Thanks again Sorcha - I'm hoping to get there myself soon-ish(possibly during a Christmas shopping trip!!!!!). If I don't make it, I may take you up on your kind offer, in which case, would it be ok to pm you? Have a good festive season,

Gill

Just had to say: hah! I have Smiths in two lines, one in Nottinghamshire and one in Cornwall!


I wonder whether these might be yours in 1871:

Name: Jane Smith
[Jane Haggerty]
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Female
Where born: Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire
Registration Number: 574
Registration district: Port Glasgow
Civil Parish: Port Glasgow
County: Renfrewshire
Address: 15 Scarlow St
ED: 13
Household schedule number: 93
Line: 21
Roll: CSSCT1871_104
Household Members:
Name Age
John Haggerty 90
Jane Haggerty 70
>> Jane Smith 28
>> Charles Smith 2 - born "Glasgow, Renfrewshire"
John Burns 25
James Tumbleton 23
John McGlary 24


Ancestry has added the "[Haggerty]" to Jane's record because apparently she is identified as daughter of the Haggerty couple. I wonder whether her mother Jane might have been on a second marriage?

Of course, my geography is not standing me in good stead. Glasgow and Port Glasgow are not the same thing ... (edit - er, you said Port Glasgow!)

But aha, I am smarter than I feel.

In 1851:

Name: Jane Divers
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Jean
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Parish Number: 574
Civil Parish: Paisley Middle Church
Town: Port Glasgow
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Scarlow Street
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 10
Page: 28 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 111
Line: 12
Roll: CSSCT1851_127
Household Members:
Name Age
>> John Haggarty 47 - born in Ireland, occupation "Auchor Hammerman"
>> Jean Haggarty 42 - born in Ireland
Bridget Haggarty 15 - born in Ireland
>> Jane Divers 9
Charles Donnel 24 - lodger
Ellen Kelly 18 - lodger
Mary Kelly 23 - lodger


So, for what it's worth -- if it might help with anything -- I think that is likely to be your Jane and Charles in 1871.

Yup -- 1861:


Name: Jane Devers
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
>> Relationship: Wifes Daur (Step Daughter)
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Female
Where born: Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire
Registration Number: 574
Registration district: Port Glasgow
Civil Parish: Port Glasgow
Town: Port Glasgow
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Scarlow Street Ramsay's Property
Occupation: Domestic Servant
ED: 13
Household schedule number: 85
Line: 18
Roll: CSSCT1861_81
Household Members:
Name Age
John Haggarty 65 - Labourer In Boat Building Yard
Jane Haggarty 58
Jane Devers 19
William Devers nk
Andrew Deans uk - boarder

You don't suppose James Smith might have remarried?


1861:

Name: James Smith
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1797
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Elizabeth N
Gender: Male
Where born: Montrose, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 312
Registration district: Montrose
Civil Parish: Montrose
County: Angus
Address: 78 Bridge Street
>> Occupation: Retired Surgeon R N
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 78
Line: 7
Roll: CSSCT1861_45
Household Members:
Name Age
James Smith 64
Elizabeth N Smith 52
Edward W Smith 9
Helen McKenzie 35
Ann Gove 40
Margaret Stewart 35


Same spouse (Eliza N) in 1851, not in evidence in 1841.

The original images are viewable at ScotlandsPeople I think. The "RN" seems consistent in both years, so it probably doesn't say "Danish" though.

In 1851 there is no son Charles in the household -- boarding school might have been the case, given the class? -- and the occupation is given by Ancestry as:

Surgeon R N Halphay Not Praetising

-- I assume that would mean "half pay"? ("p" written as open with high top line/loop, read as "h")

deleted duplicate post

Here's an interesting person in 1871:

Name: John Smith
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relationship: Boarder
Gender: Male
>> Where born: Denmark
Registration Number: 644/8
Registration district: Anderston
Civil Parish: Glasgow Barony
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 12 Anderston Quay
>> Occupation: Seaman Merchant


If Charles son of James had siblings, John Smith might be one.

There's a stray Smith child born in Denmark in the 1851, as well:


Name: Cathrine Smith
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relationship: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Subject, Denmark British
Parish Number: 387
Civil Parish: Perth
Town: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: Carpenter Street
Occupation: Scholar At Home
ED: 1
Page: 9 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 36
Line: 11
Roll: CSSCT1851_80
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Smith 35 - Annuitant, born Perth
Cathrine Smith 7

Hi Xmas,

Thanks for taking the time to help out. I'm sorry I didn't say I already have the Census information for Jane Divers - although I had never been able to find her on the 1861 census possibly becaude of the spelling, now I see. You're right, her mother had re-married (I know this from her marriage entry - her father was dead). You have a William Devers with her on the 1861 census - I didn't know about him so I'll follow that up - maybe come up with something magic!!

What I am really stuck with is

1. Where was her husband Charles Smith b ~ 1842 before they married (is the reason I haven't been able to find him to do with the Danish connection or something else) - all I have for him is a marriage entry and his name on the birth entries for his 3 children (he was NEVER the informant of either their births)

2. What happened to him after the last time he appeared on any documentation I can find i.e. the birth of his 3rd child, Jane, in 1873?

3. No info at all on his father James Smith

I had a look into the possibility of his father having re-married in Montrose. I knew I had considered this before, but was surprised to find that I had already looked and (and presumably discounted) this individual in early 2007 -

He married Eliza Napier Whyte in 1850, their son was born in 1852, James died in 1865, still married to Eliza, with no mention of any other spouses. Eliza died in 1868 aged 60y. I have even had alook at his will - that's how desperate I am!! I have discounted him as there is no mention of a previous wife, but I suppose it's not entirely out of the question that it could be him - what do you think?

Thanks again for your help - you've certainly got me thinking again.

Gill

Edit: just realised after posting that there is now a page 2 to this thread - I hadn't seen your other posts about the Danish children. How exciting - especially the John Smith one and I intend to follow it up ASAP. Thing is, with such a common name, I might not get anywhere til my next visit to new reg house.

Thanks a million ;~)

What do I think? Ha. I generally think -- find everything you can, throw it up in the air ...

I've been using up a box of paper that I'm recycling by printing on the back. It is the stacks of printouts I had done over a few months 4-5 years ago as I tried to solve some of my mysteries. Looking at them now -- whew, what I went through before finding even the beginnings of solutions! In the process I constructed entire trees of people who ultimately weren't related to me, lol.


Now, the Scots produced doctors in abundance. It would be no surprise, I might think, that one was in the Danish RN. I might look at the originals for those James Smith census records at scotlandspeople, just to be sure of what they say for occupation. It might also be possible that a doctor who had been in one country's navy also joined another? It's also quite possible that there were two Scottish Dr. James Smiths!


Charles born c1842 was a seaman. Would this be expected for the son of a surgeon? If not (I don't know), might it be that Charles was estranged from his father? Like ... because his mother had died, his father remarried, and he was reared by someone else? Or ... his mother simply remained in Denmark, and his father "re"married in Scotland? Stranger things have happened ... in my family ... That could be where Charles was before marrying, one way or the other.

In the 1841 census there are multiple Smiths who are surgeons. No James (presumably at sea). A Charles 1808, in Wigtownshire, wherever that might be.

There's one Smith, surgeon RN:

Name: John Smith
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1792
Where born: Scotland

Civil Parish: Old Machar
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: Union Place
Occupation: Surgeon R N

John Smith 49 - no wife present.
John Smith 15
Elesebeth Smith 20
Charlot Smith 19
Margt Smith 14
Shusan Mitchell 25
Tessie Panton 14

Presumably widowed, so not likely having children c1842.


I don't know, I just find the John Smith and Cathrine Smith born in the 1840s in Denmark interesting, as possible siblings. Cathrine is living with an aunt who is an annuitant, the right class. John has the same occupation as Charles. If you could find a marriage for Cathrine, or death, or in a census -- I can't find her in any subsequent census (searching for cath* born in Denmark).

We have another one too, in 1871:

Name: Neil M L Smith
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relationship: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Denmark
Registration Number: 597
Registration district: Kilmarnock
Civil Parish: Kilmarnock
Town: Kilmarnock
County: Ayrshire
Address: 12 Langlands St
Occupation: Engine Fitter At Works


In 1861 there are several Smiths born in Denmark, in the English census, who are seamen too of course, for example. In 1871 there's a "Heny" Smith (it says Smitt), 1841, cook & steward, on vessels, Durham, and others on vessels.


Or at the end of the day, could Charles just have been older than he said?

1861 English census:

Name: Charles Smith
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Denmark
Occupation: Seaman, Mercht Serv
Condition as to marriage: unmarried

Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Liverpool


--- just some second thought here.

"Seaman Mercht Serv" is pretty specific. And it matches the occupation you have (from the marriage certificate I think) to the letter.

I like this one.

And I just saw your edit (and realized my other post on page 1 had posted twice, which I'll fix).

The Cathrine in particular I do think is interesting. Her situation is consistent with mother being deceased and father in the navy.

And Charles, at school maybe ...?

This is the only Ann in 1841 who seems to look like aunt Ann in 1861:

Name: Ann Smith
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
Where born: Perthshire, Scotland

Civil Parish: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: Lilley Banth Burg Muir
Parish Number: 387

Ann Smith 26
David Smith 6
James Smith 2 (not that the name is uncommon)
Jean Ress 36
Alex Camron 18 - male servant

No other occupations or relationships are stated.


With that, I throw it up in the air ... ;)

Oh no, brain overload!! (it doesn't take much these days, honestly).

I really am trying to keep an open mind with this, but there are so many variables - the Danish aspect (and hence the possibility that the name has changed from eg schmitt at some point), the "did he die at sea" aspect.

I have to say I have also wondered if the son of a surgeon in the navy would have been destined to become a seaman. His mother WAS dead though at the time of his marriage, so perhaps he had somehow lost contact with his father. I think there's a fair chance he would have been born in Denmark, with a Danish mother. I have been on the Danish records website, but turned up nothing.

I think you're right, following up the cathrine smith idea might come up with something, but I'm off to bed now - need to hit the shops early tomorrow morning and don't want to sleep in. Night,

Gill

PS how do you find Ancestry? I've never subscribed to it - mainly use scotland's people.

Alright, one more.

How about if whoever did the census reporting decided he was born in Sweden?

In that case you would have a choice in 1881:


Name: Charles Smith
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Where born: Amie, Sweden (? does seem a little specific though)

Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Street address: "S S Auk"
>> Condition as to marriage: Married
>> Occupation: A B Seaman

Registration district: Birkenhead
ED, institution, or vessel: S S Autry

One of the small crew is "Stewardess", so it's a commercial vessel I assume. Ancestry has screwed up the images; it says "continued" at the top, but there's only one page in the set.



Name: Charles Smith
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Where born: (Bs), Sweden

Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Street address: "John Wignall"
Condition as to marriage: unmarried
Occupation: A B Seaman

Registration district: Penzance
Sub registration district: Penzance
ED, institution, or vessel: John Rignall


So, well, neither of them looks too likely ...

Over to you!



Edit -- how do I find Ancestry ... oh, it is so tempting to say "I go to www.ancestry.co.uk" ... hahaha.

I've used it for years. You have to learn how to play it, because of all the bizarre and stupendously stupid mistranscriptions, for one thing. But it's the best game in town, basicallly.

lalalala. Oh, you don't have to call me by my dumb holiday name (apparently they're a tradition on the Chat boards, so I joined in ... XmasEve ...).

Dr James may have been in the Danish RN when Charles 1842 married, but he might not have been there when he was born.

1851:

Name: Charles Smith
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relationship: Grandson
Gender: Male
>> Where born: British Legion, France (what is that??)
Parish Number: 168B
Civil Parish: Old Machar
Town: Woodsh
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: 1 Don Street
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 13
Page: 37 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 182
Line: 4
Roll: CSSCT1851_40

Charles Smith 63 - mason
Margaret Smith 63
Helen Smith 21 - daughter
Margaret Smith 20 - daughter
Charles Smith 10
James Paul 1 - grandson


Possible father of that child, in 1841:

Name: Jno Smith
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Gender: Male
Where born: Aberdeenshire, Scotland

Civil Parish: Old Machar
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: No 10
>> Occupation: Mer Seaman

Interesting ... or there could have been another older brother in the same trade ...

Chas Smith 50
Jno Smith 18
Alexr Smith 15
Margt Smith 50
Jane Smith 19
Helen Smith 13
Margt Smith 11
Donald Young 25
Ann Young 20
Jean Bain 40
N K 14days
Jane Coutts 25
Isabella Coutts 22
Christy Coutts 20
Elisabeth Wyllie 3
Jane Gordon 36
William Gordon 13


One suspects that Ancestry has mashed up some households there.