Find Ancestors

Hi
I'm in Australia, unable to visit the GRO and with no resources to afford access to some of the sites that could provide me with what I need so I'm wondering if some kind soul can do a little searching for me please. I'd really appreciate it if someone could lend me a hand please.

Can anyone help me find any information, in particular year & place of death, and any children for this couple, especially the wife. Also, there are passenger records on Find My Past between 1895 - 1913 for travel to Australia for the wife. If anyone can help with that also that would be great. Travel to Melbourne & Sydney especially, also Brisbane & Adelaide are of interest. Here are their details:

CLARA LOUISE HARTLEY NEE NICHOLSON
BORN: 1.4 1864 MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA (PARENTS FROM BRADFORD)
ASSUME SHE RESIDED IN BRADFORD.

GEORGE HENRY HARTLEY
BORN: 1853 HORTON BRADFORD.

MARRIED: 6/7/1893 BRADFORD PARISH CHURCH.

I suspect he died before 1900 but not sure. Certain she was still alive in 1907. I don't have access to the GRO or Find My Past. There's nothing I can confirm on any other records. Nothing on LDS and Free BMD hasn't transcribed the area for the years concerned. I would really appreciate any information on where they lived, an address would be great, any children or anything else anyone can help me with please.

They've been my alien abductions for the past 5 years and I'm at my wits end. Anything that anyone can do to help would be so very much appreciated.

Thank you.

??????
Births Dec 1853
HARTLEY George Henry Bradford Y 9b 95

Anyone with access to the internet has access to buying a certificate. You'll have to get one sometime if you're serious about your family history. Link: www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

1861 England Census
Name: George Henry Hartley
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Horton, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Bradford
Town: Horton
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address: 1 Southfield Lane

Occupation: scholar

Registration district: Bradford
Sub-registration district: Horton
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
George Hartley 39 - shopkeeper
Sarah Hartley 37 - shopkeepers wife
Hannah Mary Hartley 10
John Hartley 9
George Henry Hartley 7
Edward Hartley 5
Frank Hartley 1

All born Horton

Not sure if this is the same family.

1871 England Census
Name: George H Hartley
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Bradford, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Horton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address: 7 Cotden St

Occupation:

Registration district: Bradford
Sub-registration district: Horton
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
George Hartley 49 - Wool stapler
Sarah Hartley 47
William R Hartley 27 - butcher
Hannah Hartley 20 - dressmaker
George H Hartley 17 - General Clerk W'house
Edward R Hartley 15 - Mill hand
Martha E Hartley 13 - scholar
Frank Hartley 11 - scholar
Fredk C Hartley 2

See above for GRO info.


Marriages Sep 1893
Emmett Mary Elizabeth Bradford,Y. 9b 26
Hartley George Henry Bradford, Y. 9b 26
Nicholson Clara Louise Bradford, Y. 9b 26
Verity Harrison Bradford, Y. 9b 26

Where was she in 1907? Do you know of any children?

She's not on incoming passenger lists on Ancestry.

Why not check her birth cert from Melbourne?
online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/

Hello to everyone who responded to my posting. Thank you. Apologies fo not getting back to you sooner. Many thanks to Cynthia for emailing to let me know that there were replies and how I could get back to the thread...much appreciated. I should have been a little clearer with the information. Both families are very large and in the case of Clara's father's family, very well known and connected in business across the globe. There is such a wealth of info I wasn't sure exactly what to provide. I apologise. Hope this is easiler and clearer.

I know mostly everything that's important about both of them their and their families PRE their marriage. It's from the wedding day that things get murky. This is what I don't know and would really appreciate having information on:

1: Where they lived after the wedding on 6/7/1893. She was 29 yrs old.
2: If there were any children and if so, as many details as possible about them.
3: When and where George & Clara died and where they were buried.
4: Information from the 16 records found on Find My Past re passenger records for a C. Hartley/Unknown Female/ Adult 4 travel UK-OZ 1895-1913.

Date of death is needed for the death cert. Thank you to Ozbird for all the census info. They were the same family. Birth cert done..

For you Astrid, here are the details you requested.
Clara parents are:
FATHER: JAMES CHARLES WILSON NICHOLSON b:1837 BRADFORD
MOTHER: DIANA RUSHWORTH b: 1838 BRADFORD.
JAMES & DIANE WERE UNASISSTED PASSENGERS TO AUSTRALIA IN DECEMBER 1859
James is one of the Nicholson organ building dynasty whose origins were Rochdale, spreading to Bradford, Worcester and other cities in the UK. It still trades today (at Worcester). It was founded by his father John. The family were well known and respected at home and abroad. James built a business empire in Australia and was a household name. He was a musical instrument importer and publisher in 4 states of Australia, part of society elite, well connected internationally and domestically. Clara worked with her father (there a photos as evidence) and travelled with him on his many overseas trips. They also returned to the UK for family visits. James was well known and respected in London, on the continient and in the US.

I don't know at what point in time or the circumstances under which Clara was in or travelled to the UK at the time she met/married George. It was a society wedding and made the papers. ( I have a copy of that) I have a copy of the wedding cert and followed as many leads off that as possible.

Clara's address on the cert. was 18 Spring Gardens Bradford (still there today). Bradford council says her father was registered at that address on an electoral roll they have for that year. They believe he owned the property. Seems sensible that he kept a town house for his visits back home. I assume that's where Clara lived prior to her marriage. George's address on the cert was in Shipley. The street does not appear to exist today.

GEORGE WAS A MERCHANT SHIPPING CLERK/AGENT. I believe it highly likely that he worked on behalf of his father in law's interests in the UK and on the contintent. James CW Nicholson often traveled directly to the manufacturers in the UK, Germany and Europe and the US and ordered his stock after personally inspecting it's quality & performance values for his four 6 storey opulent music houses. It would make sense for George to adopt this role as James was getting older and had a large business to control.

In April 1907 James had an operation from which he didn't recover. Clara left the UK and sailed here aboard the vessel "GEELONG" to see him. She was registered to disembark in Sydney (where James lived at that time) but he died whilst she was in transit. He was transported to Melbourne for his funeral and burial at St. Kilda Cemetery alongside his wife and sister in the family crypt. As a result of this Clara disemarked a few days earlier in Melbourne. I've seen the full image from the passenger record. That's how I know she was alive in 1907. That and the fact that the male travelling with them embarked in Adelaide and had a different age and occupation than her husband George (those details matched one of George's brothers). George was not mentioned in James obit which leads met to believe he has died by this time. They are not anywhere on the 1901C. I suspect they/she were overseas, probably here in Australia at that time for Austrlaia's Federation celebrations. There are 3 female children travelling with Clara, 2 born before their wedding. I don't know who owns them. Not neices. Questions re illegimitate children are not an option in this case with this family.

I hope this extra info helps. Clara & any children are the main interest. Any info from those pass records on FMP are of great interest. I promised the family here that I would not stop until I found out what happened to her.

Thank you all again.
Helen

So Sadie, got your message, you having decided I was a good person to ask. !!!

You have Ozibird here at the Australian end, and I can't compete with that, I'm afraid.

So it's Clara Louise Nicholson Hartley you're looking for. And the one bit that I might be able to help with is (from your PM):

"One last thing. I found a passenger record on Ancestry for James & his 2nd wife Letitia travelling to BC Canada. Can't remember the year...I think it might have been 1903..he died in 1907..anyway..as I don't have ancestry access I couldn't see the record..The reason I mention this is that I doubt James was travelling there on business at his age with his wife in tow.... and I know there was family there (see under Louis Burnell b: 1891 in tree) but don't I have any info from the record as to where in BC he was intending to stay or who he was going to see. I wondered if Clara relocated to Canada..just a thought..given she's not on either the 1901c or the 1911 index for UK..."

http://www.automatedgenealogy.com

There's no Clara Hartley in BC in 1911.

http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-1B01D0D/gbsearch/Births,Marriages,Deaths

There's no Clara Hartley marriage to 1933 or death to 1988 in BC.

For now I'm just going to stick this here to mark it in my threads, and will come back and have a look on the weekend ... but I fear I will tarnish my reputation here ...

HI Janey
Thank you for checking those BC connections for me. Wish I could access that passenger record..it might give a little more info as to where he was off to..never mind. It seems no one has been able to find them since they got married. Ozibird was able to find info on George pre marriage (THANK YOU OZI!!) but I've already got a fair bit on him prior to the wedding. Not much on her re any pre marriage travel. Records ex Australia shipping & passengers are pretty hopeless over here.
Anyway, thank you for your help.
Helen

Sadie --

In the first post:

"Also, there are passenger records on Find My Past between 1895 - 1913 for travel to Australia for the wife. ... Travel to Melbourne & Sydney especially, also Brisbane & Adelaide are of interest."

CLARA LOUISE HARTLEY NEE NICHOLSON
BORN: 1.4 1864


I don't see any records with name Clara specifically, or any initial C records that seem to match.

I'll holler for Viv to look them up for you if you can identify them -- copy them here, like this for instance:

HARTLEY C Unknown F 1910 London Australia Sydney

-- that being the only one I see that could be her -- there are loads of Hartley voyages with no initial or date of birth.

I have actually found something by googling.

(Tip for getting Canadian results: use www.google.ca and select pages in Canada)


http://www.ofo.ca/obrc/includes/1992OBRCReport.pdf

Ontario Bird Records Committee
Report for 1992

Golden-crowned Sparrow (Zonotrichia atricapilla) )0/6/l)
1992 — one adult, 3-6 May, Belwood, Wellington [Marion Burnell-Grant - photo on file.


The file is a photocopy and may take a bit to load. The entry is the second one at the top of page 61 (number in right-hand corner of the page).

She is a birdwatcher. ;)

The location is Belwood, in Wellington county, Ontario. I don't know it ... google maps tells me it's a crossroads about an hour west of Toronto and northeast of Kitchener-Waterloo (where I went to school). She might have been living in either place, for instance.


The Ontario Field Ornithologists site is here: http://www.ofo.ca

Since the notation in 1992 was that there was a photo on file, I imagine that her contact info was on file at that time too.


But I find more.

http://www.natureconservancy.ca/site/DocServer/annual_report_2004_insert.pdf?docID=125

Nature Conservancy Canada 2004 annual report
(their names also appear in other lists at that site)

The following individuals gave generously ...
... John & Marion Grant


Maybe getting closer ... this is consistent with conservation support:

http://www.gca.ca/indexcms/index.php?id=28,44,0,0,1,0

7 September 2004
INSECTS. Marion Grant, Certified Water Guide for the Elora Centre for Environmental Excellence, has completed a 32-page booklet on local insects for sixth grade students ? in just over two weeks.


The Elora Gorge is in that same general area. Oh, it actually *is* that area. That's what Belwood is. Well, they're like 10 miles apart.

(Allow me to whine a moment. Canadians do not say "sixth grade", we say "grade six", and that's a nasty bit of USAmerican lingo being used by supposedly Canadian educators there.)



Oh my goodness. Her name is clickable at that site, and what do you get when you click? Her husband's email address.

Yes yes yes. It is winging its way to you by PM.

It's five years old and people change ISPs. Sympatico is the big Bell Canada ISP and it's one that people tend to start with and stay with, so cross our fingers. If no luck, I'll keep digging, if you do want to contact the Burnell-Grant branch.

Oh, but in any event, this is the Centre that published the booklet:

http://www.ecee.on.ca/

and certainly I would think she would still be contactable through there. ... And oh, I get it -- she *is* a Certified Water Guide. I thought that was a book ...

Hi again Janet. Many thanks for the info on the Grants. John actually tracked me down a few years ago from an older posting of mine. His wife is the Nicholson connection as you discovered, however I didn't know what she did..very interesting material, so thank you again.

Re FMP pass records.

Before listing them I've included a baseline record for my suspected Hartley's. If this is my correct family, they were traveling to Aust because James was dying. He did die just before the ship arrived in Melbourne, where they disembarked. Also, there are differences between the FMP record for this family trip and the PROV record for the same family trip.

PROV has MR & Mrs Hartley, no "E" Hartley male, and different ages for the three children.

FMP has "E" for the male with a different birth year and no "Mrs. Hartley".

It would be very useful for me to compare the info between both the records, especially the images, also to see if the FMP record has a residential addy for the UK or Aust. If I can confirm or refute that these are my Hartley's it would be great, as I've believed they are for the last 6 yrs. There are no other Hartley's arriving in Melbourne at that time. Given that Clara's father was dying I can't imagine her not coming home. Can't understand why she's not on the FMP records but is on the PROV record. Also, the same family traveled here in 1914 on board the "Scharnhorst" according to PROV..yet they don't seem to be here on FMP..never mind..moving right along...

Here's the FMP record. I know that the vessel is the "Geelong", it's departure and arrival dates, where they embarked, their destination and final disembarkation city, all according to PROV. Also, the PROV record has the MR. Hartley embarking in Adelaide...very odd...might not be related to the family at all...but his occupation matches one of George's brothers...insurance clerk.. Anyway, here's the FMP records for the base line trip. Any info, especially nationality, off these records will be fabulous.

HARTLEY C N 1888 F 1907 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW

HARTLEY D M 1885 F 1907 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW

HARTLEY E 1852 M 1907 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW

HARTLEY E J 1883 F 1907 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW

As for records for Clara, there is no "C" or "Clara" or "Mrs" Hartley listed here. Only Unknowns, so I'll list the few I think are "probables" rather than possibles and hope something matches.

HARTLEY Unknown F 1907 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW (CLARA FOR THE FUNERAL???)

HARTLEY Unknown F 1911 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW

HARTLEY Unknown F 1911 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW

HARTLEY Unknown F 1913 London Australia Sydney VIEW VIEW

HARTLEY Unknown F 1913 London Australia Sydney VIEW VIEW

Here are other records for Miss D M Hartley for other years for info comparison and hopefully a home addy & nationality.

HARTLEY D M 1890 F 1893 London Australia Melbourne VIEW VIEW

HARTLEY D M Unknown F 1913 London Australia Sydney VIEW VIEW

Thank you so much for all this help...oh..and a big thank you also to VIV for checking the pass. records...Can't wait to hear something back.
Helen

After a very grovelling ,begging,flattery gets you everywhere ,(but maybe not results) PM from Helen

I come on board ,but need this simplified please,I dont have the foggiest what Im doing other than?.
Passenger list lookups?

In plain straightforward English please Janey,what am I looking for?

George Henry(1853 Bradford) and Clara Louise(1864 Oz) Hartley after 1893 I think?

Am I missing it? ,what is Georges occupation?

1891 census says ,,,shipping clerk..so that answers that!

Name: Mrs HARTLEY
Date of departure: 20 June 1907
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Melbourne, Australia
Passenger destination: Melbourne, Australia

Date of Birth:
Age:
Marital status: Married
Sex: Female
Occupation: Lady

The following people with the same last name travelled on this voyage: -

Mr J F HARTLEY (gent)

But I think that they are a couple?

All it says is that he is English,and he is travelling alone.

Name: Mr Geo H HARTLEY
Date of departure: 23 July 1903
Port of departure: Liverpool
Passenger destination port: Boston, USA
Passenger destination: Boston, USA

Date of Birth:
Age: Adult
Marital status: Married
Sex: Male
Occupation: Gent


Those are the only 2 entries of interest that I have found.

The age is out but..

Deaths Dec 1905 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hartley George Henry 48 Bradford 9b 13

HI Vivienne
The groveller here....lol...Sorry if the request in my postings was so confusing. I basically need to find Clara ( where she lived, when and where she died and especially if she had any children) post her marriage..she's the priority..but George is a bonus.

Re the pass record for George to Boston. That's the first record I've heard about for him. I strongly suspect he handled his father in law's international shipping matters for his huge musical imstruments importing business. It was international. This might explain his travel to the US. Thank you for that.

I've come across a few records for Clara re travel to Boston which I couldn't access...did you spot any for her by any chance? I was hoping those records might give some info as to where they were staying in Boston or wherever they were heading in the US...given they both seem to have done a disappearing act from the UK records, I wonder if they moved to the US despite many pass. records for Clara travelling to Aust from the UK...all very confusing.

Can you suggest which US records I should search for any trace of them please?

Thank you again Viv. Much appreciated.
Helen