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I am trying to find any information on James Walter Jones who was born abt 1804 and died 1844 in Whitechapel, Middlesex. Walter married Anne Reddy in Cornwall 1836 and had three (3) children. Any information on where he was born or his parents/grand parents, would be very mcuh appreciated. I have his details on the 1841 census.

How do you know the fella that died in Whitechapel in 1844 is yours? He is a long way from Cornwall, and he is James Walter Jones, not Walter James Jones. What evidence do you have that he is the husband of Ann Reddy? But there is a marriage (submitted) on IGI of James Walter Jones to Ann Reddy in Helstone, Cornwall.

You say he had 3 children. Who were they (names, dates and where born)?

There are several Walter James and James Walter Joneses.

If you have his details on the 1841 census might you share them? It saves others trying to find them, especially not knowing whether to look in Cornwall or Whitechapel. It's only fair that everyone else know everything you know, lol.

On the 1841 Census, James Jones & Anne Reddy were living at Norfolk Street, Boston with their two children James 4 yrs and Clotilda born Boston, Lincolnshire abt 18 months, they had another child Veronica born Hinckley, Leicester 1843.
On the 1851Census, Anne was married to Thomas Bennett and had Elizabeth 4 yrs, George Christian 3 weeks, James Jones 14 yrs. Dyer, Clotilda 12 years Silk Weaver and Varonocca (Veronica) 8 Scholar.

For ref.


1841 England Census
about James Jones
Name: James Jones
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Boston
Hundred: Boston
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England


Occupation: weaver


Registration district: Boston
Sub-registration district: Boston
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Augustine Fraviger 23
Jane Fraviger 20
John Fraviger 1week
Sarah Wright 60
James Jones 35
Ann Jones 30
James Jones 5
Clotilda Jones 1 6 Mo
Francis Smith 25
Ellen Smith 25
Margaret Smith 35
Thomas Smith 4
Rachael Smith 10 Mo
John Heggleson 40
Mary Heggleson 50
James Galligher 25
Elizabeth Wilson 25
Ann Feggleton 50
Henry Cooper 11
William Simpson 20
Jane Briadlene 20
Lawrence Denegret 30

Do you have the death cert and some of the children's birth certs?

Christine

I don't have birth certificates, this is the information that I have though, Clotilda born 29 October 1839 died 8 October 1899 and Veronica born 7 Mar 1843 died 13 May 1903, they both died in Australia, I have no details on James born 1837

Madmeg. James & Ann Jones' last child was born in Leicester, I thought that Whitechapel Middlesex was not far from there!! But I'm not local tho.
I have just started using this community board in the last week and I am still trying to understand what happens, hopefully it wont take long lol!

Leicester and Whitechapel aren't neighbours, no, lol. But maybe not far by Australian standards!

They did move around though, married in Cornwall, 1841 in Lincolnshire, that's not common, but I would be doubtful of that Whitechapel death.

Registration really was very optional at that time, you might not find a death record.

You didn't mention that in 1851 they are in Manchester!

Name: Clotilda Jones
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Stepdaughter
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Herton, Lancashire, England

Name: Ann Bennett
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1819
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Penzance, Cornwall, England


So daughter Clotilde was born in Lanashire, in 1841 they're in Lincolnshire, in 1851 they're back in Lancashire, and at some point not much later they're in Leicestershire?? Any idea of the explanation?


Just to top it off this is the only possible Ann Jones and Thomas Bennett marriage in the GRO


Marriages Jun 1848
? BENNETT Thomas Monmouth 26 117
Cole Mary Ann Monmouth 26 117
HEIGHWAY Richard Tilsley Monmouth 26 117
? JONES Ann Monmouth 26 117
Morris Mary Monmouth 26 117
Preest Mary Monmouth 26 117
Taylor John Monmouth 26 117
Wheeler Frederick Monmouth 26 117


but even if those two in the list married each other I'm just not going to believe they're your people. There were too many Ann Joneses in Wales, lol.


I would be more inclined to think that Ann and her husband were estranged and she partnered with Mr Bennett without marriage but the absence of a marriage record doesn't prove that.

Mel can we ask what confirmation you have of various facts please?

That submitted marriage in the IGI - there are two versions of it

James Walter Jones
Birth: About 1804 [Whitechapel North, , London, England]
Death: 23 SEP 1844
Spouse: Anne Reddy
Marriage: About 1836 , , England

James Walter Jones
Spouse: Anne Reddy
Marriage: About 1836 Of Helstone, , Cornwall, England


I'm afraid this is all absolutely unreliable and it looks like where you have been getting info.

Do you have some independent confirmation that your Ann is Ann Reddy for example? One of the Australian marriage or death records? Birthplace Penzance in 1851 is a reasonable match, people in Lancashire might have heard of Penzance but not Helston for example. But so far we don't seem to have good evidence of much.

A Mormon has been busy with these people, there is this 'record' submitted to the IGI


Clotilda Jones
Birth: 29 DEC 1839 Kirton, , Lincoln, England
Father: James Walter Jones
Mother: Anne Reddy

(this agrees with the 1851 census - I see that Ancestry has incorrectly transcribed her place of birth, it is Lincolnshire)


We just don't know where that info would come from, because for one thing parish records show christening dates not birth dates. It may be that someone kept meticulous family records, it may be from later records in Australia.

Need to know where your info comes from.



I would start here for getting verified info

Births Mar 1840 (>99%)
Jones Clotilda Glanford Brigg 14 353

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Clotilda's birth certificate will give both parents' full names.

My ggg grandmother was Clotilda, on her marriage certificate it states that she was born in Lincolnshire and that her parents were James Walter Jones Lace Weaver and Ann Reddy.
Ann remarried again!! in 1860 as Ann Bennett (Widow Oct 1857) to William Simpson, on this marriage certificate her parents were James Reddy, Soldier and Mary Cane.
On the 1851 Census that I have, Clotilda was 12 years old and a Silk weaver is this the same one that you have quoted?

Yes, that's the 1851. Ancestry has it as


Name: Clotilda Jones
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Stepdaughter
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Herton, Lancashire, England <<< NOT

Civil parish: Manchester

Thomas Bennett 29
Ann Bennett 32
Elizabeth Bennett 4
Thomas Bennett 2
Not Christine 3w
James Jones 14
Clotilda Jones 10
Varonacca Jones 8
Elizabeth Conway 32
John Conway 12
Susannah Conway 9


The image clearly says Lincolnshire Kirton (at least when you know what you're looking at, lol).

Well you do have records then so that's better.

We would expect that Walter/James would have died in Leicestershire where they were when the last child was born or Lancashire where Ann was in 1851.

But oops, is Elizabeth a child of Thomas and Ann?

Name: Elizabeth Bennett
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England <<<

which is where Thomas was from.

Elizabeth is the daughter of James & Ann, there was another daughter Ann born in 1853 and another son was born in Australia. I wonder if she moved around a lot as a child, her father being a soldier and couldn't settle down!! I think she may have had some problems too, as on her marriage certificate to Wm. Simpson, she had no living children, which was wrong.

So did Clotilda marry in Australia? Otherwise how do you know her date of birth, as UK marriage records don't give it.

There is only one birth of a Clotilda Jones, which is given earlier, in March 1840, Glanford Brigg, Lincolnshire.

Bruce, although I can see the family in 1851, I can't quite read where Clotilda is born. There is no such place as Herton, Lancashire, and squinting it looks like Linconshire (mis-spelt) to me. But there is no such place as Herton, Lincolnshire either! I would run with Lincolnshire at the moment.

EDIT you think it is Kirton. Fine with that.

So Mel, are you happy that this is your relative? Cos there is also a Clotilda Jones in the Isle of Wight. A tad nearer to Cornwall.

Don't rely on records submitted to the IGI, unless you have other evidence to think they are correct. A lot of them are utter rubbish.

So, do you think the family up in Manchester is yours?

I think you are going to have to buy some certificates.

Margaret

More on Bennett/Reddy 1851 Census, Thomas & Not Christine - I have this as George born 5 Mar 1851 and Ann were all born in Lancashire

Mel would you please when you say 'I have this' tell us
__where__
you 'have' things from??

'Not Christine' makes no sense of course, true. The person is a son, 3 weeks old, born Manchester, and what it undoubtedly and fairly clearly says is 'Not Christened'.

This could be him

Births Jun 1851
BENNETT George Manchester 20 676


Also I did ask whether child Elizabeth was a daughter of Ann and Thomas. Knowing this could help place when/where Walter/James may have died.

This could be Elizabeth's birth

Births Dec 1846 (>99%)
Bennett Elizabeth Leeds 23 393

This is the website of Cornwall online parish clerks OPCs

http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/parishes.php#H
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/h_k/helston.php

and this is the website of the OPC for Helston parish

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cricket5/

where he has all BMDs from parish registers.

There is no marriage for any Reddy in those records. There is also no Reddy birth or marriage in the general database at the Cornwall OPC site.


The OPC for Helston is coincidentally someone I have been in touch with in the past. He lives in the US. He is very enthusiastic about his parish project and would be more than willing to help if he could I'm sure.

Elizabeth is definitely Thomas Bennett & Ann Reddy's daughter. On the 1851 Census that you sent me there was a 'Not Christine' I was only saying who he was. I will have to try & explain myself properly, so we don't have any misunderstandings!! If you can't find any birth or marriage on Ann Reddy in Cornwall, it is definitely stated on her marriage certificate she was born in Penzance, Cornwall, is there a possibility she was born to her mother Mary Cane before she married James Reddy and she took on the name of Reddy?

Yes, and I explained that Not Christine' is not 'Not Christine', it is 'Not Christened'. So it was a 3-week old George, who had not yet been named by being christened and I found the probable birth record.

All I've asked is that you reply to questions and give the source of the information you 'have'. Very often in searches like this is turns out that information that people 'have' is totally wrong. That is not to say that such information is always or ever wrong. Knowing where it comes from can help figure that out. Chasing after people based on information that turns out to be wrong is very frustrating.

'Elizabeth is definitely Thomas Bennett & Ann Reddy's daughter.Elizabeth is definitely Thomas Bennett & Ann Reddy's daughter.'

That was all I wanted to know the first time I asked. Because it tells us when Ann and Thomas were already together, and where they were. But you still have not said where that information comes from.


For the question about Ann, Mel, do go to the websites I gave links for and have a search around yourself.

I don't understand this either

'it is definitely stated on her marriage certificate she was born in Penzance, Cornwall,'

That is this marriage? --

'in 1860 as Ann Bennett (Widow Oct 1857) to William Simpson, on this marriage certificate her parents were James Reddy, Soldier and Mary Cane.'

Is that in England? I haven't known English marriage certificates to state place of birth or date of husband's death. And there is no such marriage in the GRO. Was it in Australia? Then it would make sense for that info to be on it.