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Hi all - I would appreciate any help in pointing me in the right direction

My Great great grandparents are Johanne Guthmann b 1863 and Anna Morgana b 1869. They were both born in Germany.
I can see them on both 1901&1911 census in london-what does it mean when it says 'Germany British Sub'?

I would first love to know how to go about finding where in Germany they came from and other possible family there.

During WW1 Johanne was treated as an alien and put in a camp either Isle of Man or Crystal palace. Do you know I could find records for these? When he was released he went home to Cologne Germany helped by salvation army - do they have records? (leaving his wife and children here). So I would also love to know what happened after.

One more thing Johanne had 2 brothers I believe Hans & Wilhelm (?) who went to Boston USA around 1894 and changed their name to Goodman. I am not familiar with looking up passenger lists so any advice here would be welcome

Thanks a lot - I know I have asked a lot of questions!

There are a few possibilities for Johanne's birth on this site https://beta.familysearch.org/

Thank you - as I havent had to look at other countries yet, I didnt know where to start

Just for ref:-
1901
Name: John Guthmann
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Anna Guthmann
Gender: Male
Where born: Germany

Civil Parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Signwriter Paint

Registration district: Paddington
Sub-registration district: St Mary, Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 272
Household Members:
Name Age
John Guthmann 38
Anna Guthmann 32
Elizabeth Guthmann 6
Minnie Guthmann 3
Marie A Guthmann 1


...........sometimes death certificates will give the persons place of birth. Maybe worth a look?
Do you have their marriage cert.? This will give you their father's names which may help find their birth?

Possible 1891?

Name: Johann Gutman
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Stomberg, Kreniznach

Civil Parish: St Andrew Holborn Above The Bars
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Holborn
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Baker

Condition as to marriage: Single

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: St Andrew Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page

This looks to be the marriage for 1901 census:-

Marriages Jun 1894 (>99%)
Blake William Michael Kensington 1a 313
Cooper Annie Kensington 1a 313
xxxx Fabra Anna Kensington 1a 313
xxxx Guthmann John Kensington 1a 313

...........but Anna's maiden name is not Morganna????

Possible brother?

Name: Wilhelm Guthmann
Arrival Date: 6 Oct 1896
Birth Year: abt 1875
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: German
Port of Departure: Antwerp, Belgium
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Friesland

1911?

GUTHMANN, John Head Married M 48 1863 Baker German VIEW
GUTHMANN, Anna Wife F 42 1869 German Resident VIEW
GUTHMANN, Lizzie Daughter Single F 15 1896 Blouse Machinist England N K VIEW
GUTHMANN, Minnie Daughter F 11 1900 School England N K VIEW
GUTHMANN, Agnes Daughter F 11 1900 School England N K VIEW
GUTHMANN, John Son M 6 1905 School England N K VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
1330 Reference:
RG14PN1330 RG78PN46 RD16 SD1 ED9 SN206

Registration District:
Shoreditch Sub District:
Shoreditch South Enumeration District:
9 Parish:
Shoreditch

Address:
13 County:
London

Occupation - Baker which would match 1891 census!

German British subject usually indicates they have taken Naturalisation. The record would be at Kew. however its not necessarily correct. i have a German grandfather and on the 1901 census his family are described as German British Subjects I looked at Kew for their naturalisation records and none found .I enquired there as to why when the census implied they did and was told this happened a lot. the enumerator would ask "do you have the right to be here? and they would say "YES" so he would write them down as British Subjects without asking the specific question re being naturalised

Possible?

Name: Wilhelm Goodman
Home in 1900: Cleveland Ward 17, Cuyahoga, Ohio
Age: 24
Birth Date: Sep 1875
Birthplace: Poland Russ
[Poland;Russia]
Race: White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1893
Relationship to Head of House: Head
Father's Birthplace: Poland Russ
Mother's Birthplace: Poland Russ
Spouse's name: Fannie Goodman
Marriage Year: 1895
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 5
Name Age
Wilhelm Goodman 24
Fannie Goodman 25
Esther Goodman 4
Samuel Goodman 2



Tracey x

Possible connection?

Name: Lina Guthmann
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: German Subject, Germany

Civil Parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Condition as to marriage: married

Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: North West Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 118
Household Members:
Name Age
Lina Guthmann 36
Line Guthmann 12 born: Nartunoblainalls, England
Elsa Guthmann 8 born: Nartunoblainalls, England
Charles Guthmann 1 1 Month born: Nartunoblainalls, England
Heinrich Hundertmark 56 - Roomer born: German, Germany

........I read children's birth place as (Part Unobtainable) ?


another possible connection?
1901
Name: Charles Guthmann
Age: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emma Guthmann
Gender: Male
Where born: Germany

Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Licensed Victualler

Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Shoreditch South
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 286
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Guthmann 41
Emma Guthmann 40 born: Germany
Emma Guthmann 12 born: London
Nina Reisterhinke 19
Frieda Bierkamp 18
Alois Tullbier 26

Wonder if this is him in 1881???

Name: John Goodman
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: (B S), Germany

Civil Parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 56 Blechynden St

Occupation: Journeyman Baker

Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Kensington Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 34a

............occupation would fit?

Hi all

Thank you so much for all of this information and explanations

A lot seems to fit on the face of it, and a lot for me to investigate further or prove, especially the possible discrepancies that I have in the information that I was given

I appreciate your help
Kx

This would seem to be the Anna Fabra from the marriage:-

1891
Name: Anna Fabra
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Germany

Civil Parish: Kensington
Ecclesiastical parish: St George Campden Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 18 Holland Park

Occupation: Kitchenmaid

Condition as to marriage: single

Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Kensington Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Allatini 35 - Merchant in the City
Bronis Allatini 21
Roselaure Allatini 1
Rhoda Wyles 31
Francisa Grieder 38
Christina Haisch 29
Mary Holden 23
Anna Fabra 24
(plus quite a few other household members)

...........the marriage cert. will give you her occupation and address at the time of marriage, which may help to confirm if this is her?

Death of Anna?????:-
Name: Anna Guthman
Death Registration Month/Year: 1921
Age at death (estimated): 52
Registration district: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 92
(makes date of birth 1869)

Thank you again Catherine - this is great

Just in case it turns out to be the same family:-

This would fit with the Charles Guthmann, married to Emma, in 1901 census:-

Wills and Probate:-
Guthmann Johann Carl of the Royal Connaught Public House, 262 High Holburn Middlesex died the 2 March 1908 Probate London 28 March to Emma Guthmann widow: Effects £867 8s 5d.

1911
GUTHMANN, Emma Head Widow F 50 1861 Comfectionery Shop - Keeper Waldeck Germany VIEW
GUTHMANN, Emma Marie Henrietta Daughter Single F 22 1889 Assist Mother In Shop London Kings Road Chelsea VIEW
GROOCOCK, Percy Danvers Visitor Single M 24 1887 Chauffeur Domestic Leicester Leics VIEW
BUNDLE, Hannah Maria Boarder Widow F 74 1837 Pensioner Dependents On London Westminster Regent Street Poulteney Street W VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
238 Reference:
RG14PN238 RG78PN8 RD3 SD2 ED12 SN250

Registration District:
Fulham Sub District:
South Hammersmith Enumeration District:
12 Parish:
Hammersmith

Address:
262 C King Street Hammersmith H County:
London


Same Emma in 1891, but no Johann/Charles??
Name: Emma Guthmann
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Germany

Civil Parish: St Margaret and St John The Evangelist Westminster
Ecclesiastical parish: Knightsbridge All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Sub-registration district: St Margaret Westminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 12a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Florence Richards 27
Emma Guthmann 30
Emma Guthmann 2


Here he is:-
Name: Carl Guttmann
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Windershausen, Germany

Civil Parish: Chelsea
Ecclesiastical parish: Upper Chelsea Trinity
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Butler

Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea, North
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Chas Croker Barton 33
Eliza Anne Barton 65
Carl Guttmann 31
Wihelmina Sinclair 65
Alice Emily Harren 20
Alice Jane Finch 14

Name: Emma Henrietta M Guthmann
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Chelsea (1841-1981)
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 320

Name: Emma H M Guthmann
Year of Registration: 1915
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's Surname: Groocock
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 989
Spouse: Percy D Groocock


Marriages Sep 1887 (>99%)
xxxx GUTHMANN Johann Carl Pancras 1b 300
xxxx HENTE Emma Pancras 1b 300
PROVOST Cecila Frances Pancras 1b 300
REHFUESS Benjamin Pancras 1b 300

Name: Emma Guthmann
Death Registration Month/Year: 1947
Age at death (estimated): 87
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5c
Page: 1548
(makes date of birth 1860)

....................but I'm getting a bit distracted here, better try and get back on track!!!

There is this birth???

JOHANNA GUTMANN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 04 JUN 1864 Katholisch, Kappel Freiburg, Freiburg, Baden
Father: JOSEF GUTMANN
Mother: MARIA WISLER

EDIT:- Oh no silly me! This is a female.

ha ha ! I've done the same thing before!

Thank you! I appreciate your help none the less.