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Hi Ivy,

I have searched all over the place with very many variations of both surnames, i.e. Hewer and Murray, and I checked the military marriages for Egypt and marriages for the name Hewer in Ireland but could find nothing. All I can think of is that perhaps they didn't register the marriage??

Hilda
:-(

Hi Hilda,

On your thread about troops around Cirencester, you added the following:

"From John Murray's war record, all it states is that from 07.12.1880 - 19.02.1885 he was "Home", and from 20.02.1885 - 12.06.1885 he was in Egypt. Then from 13.06.1885 until 06.12.1892 he was "Home" again, and I have no idea where "Home" was each time".

Regimental births and marriages that occurred outside England and Wales were indexed separately; it might be worth searching these for the time that he was in Egypt; and, if the military term "home" includes Ireland, searching the regimental registers for any time the regiment spent in Ireland.

The flaw in this theory though is that it seems unlikely that an unmarried Mary would go with the regiment to Egypt/Ireland and marry him there.

Have you already searched the regimental registers?

Hi Folks, sorry that I didn't realise that by clicking Send Message next to someone's name my message was only going to that person! I'm not an expert on Genes yet so I hope you will bear with me!

Below are the emails of my 'conversation' with Ivy which she kindly suggested I add to a thread, so I have chosen this one to do that. Here are the emails:

Hi Ivy,

Thank you for your very interesting email, which I read with great interest.

" 1) Where the parents were married to one another, fathers details must be entered in the register and only one parent will sign the register..."

The above is an extract from what you sent me, and to clarify why I think they must have been married, I will give you details from Minnie Kate's Birth Certificate, as follows:

Column 1 - When and Where Born:
Twenty Ninth May 1884 Cowley, Oxford

Column 2 - Name, if any:
Minnie Kate

Column 3 - Sex:
Girl

Column 4 - Name and Surname of Father:
John Philip Murray (the middle name is wrong as it is not shown in any other document I have)

Column 5 - Name, Surname, and Maiden Surname of Mother:
Mary Murray, formerly Hewer

Column 6 - Occupation of Father:
Groom

Column 7 - Signature, description and residence of Informant:
J.P, Murray, Father, Preston Cirencester Gloucester, Paper Declaration dated 16th July 1884

Column 8 - When Registered:
Eighteenth July 1884

Then last column is the name of the registrar.

I was also told by Oxford Record Office that because it had the word "formerly" before Hewer it meant that Mary had married John Murray.

Kind regards
Hilda


Hi Hilda,

Regarding the interpretation of the birth certificate contents, I looked at it for quite a while, trying to reconcile it with the 1880s legislation as summarised by the webpage that I found. I had a eureka moment when I realised that Mary did not report the birth - instead, John reported it. I think therefore what we can definitely say is that John reported the birth (via declaration since he could not attend in person), on the basis that the couple were married. I think it is still an open question as to whether:
the couple were married; or
John presented the info as if they were married.

So as you say, it might well still be worth looking for the marriage!

There so seem to be several sightings of established couples having children at around this time, who finally married once the impediment to their marriage was lifted. These seem to be usually where one or other have previously married and the previous spouse has died. Have you looked a long way forward for the marriage? Alternatively, might Minnie Kate have been born before the couple had a chance to be married, so that they married shortly after this? If so, it may be that Mary was able to report the later children's births (possibly with marriage certificate in hand when she went to the Registrar)? Have you compared this one with the later children's birth certificates?

Now I will reply to Ivy's email above. Yes Ivy, I looked from 1879 to 1901 for a marriage but could not find one. Although Mary Ann Hewer was shown as Hewer in 1881 and Murray in 1884, she gave birth to an illegitimate child, namely Annie Matilda Hewer, in 1879 in Lower Bupton, Cliffe Pippard, Wootton Bassett, and the father's name was not shown on the birth certificate, so Mary was the Informant. In comparison with the other childrens birth certificates, John Murray Junior, B.1885 Birmingham, and Elizabeth Murray B.1887 Cirencester, Mary Murray (mother) was the Informant. Rebecca Kate Murray B.1890 108 Gloucester Street, Cirencester, John Murray (father) was the Informant. Joseph Harold Murray B. 1893 Cirencester and Albina Ellen Murray B.1896 South Cerney, Cirencester, Mary Murray (mother) was the Informant. I suspect that as John Murray was in the 5th Royal Irish Lancers at the time of each birth, perhaps he wasn't always around to register the birth.

There is one thing that interests me though and that is that Mary Ann Hewer was working as a Domestic Servant at Yarnton Manor in Oxfordshire in the 1881 census, and there was a son in the family around Mary's age. I have often wondered if Mary was working there in 1879 when she gave birth to her illegitimate daughter. It would be interesting to find out!

Hilda

Hi Ozibird,

Yes, I'm confident that the John Murrey born in Newport, Shropshire (SH6a) is my "bloke" (I loved that bit!) because, since I realised that, there are a lot of things that tie up now. For instance, his occupation when his first child was born in 1884 was as a Groom. When he joined the 5th Royal Irish Lancers in January 1880, at the age of 21, his occupation on his application was as a Groom. I have him on the 1861 and 1871 Census records in Newport, Shropshire, and on the 1881 Census at Moorland House in Farlington I found a John Murray born 1858, whose occupation was once again as a Groom but, they have his birth place down as Middlesex, which is wrong, and it appears on the original census that Middlesex has been crossed out. On the 1891 Census at Compton Verney House a John Murray appears as a Valet Domestic Servant, born in 1854, which is clearly incorrect, but it does show he was born in Newport, Shropshire. The interesting thing on this census though is that an Archibald C Little is also at this property and his occupation is as a Major in the 5th Lancers, the same regiment as John Murray!

I had a look at both Compton Verney House and Moorland House, and they are both big mansions, and staying at Moorland House in 1881 was a Major General in the R.M. Artillery and a Lt. R.W. in the Militia, both service men, as was John Murray. Perhaps they took John there to look after their horses as he was a Groom?

Anyway, I would welcome any comments you might have on the above.

Kind regards
Hilda

Do you have all the censuses?


Ozi

So this is your bloke?

Births Dec 1858
Murrey John Newport Sh 6a 714

Hi Hilda,

I've put some details below regarding naming the father on birth certificates in the 1880s, which does perhaps suggest that they were not married?

"..Whether father is entered in the register depends on two factors - were the couple married (always entered) and what date the registration was made (maybe - maybe not).

The early registrations between 1837 and approximately 1850 are a little mixed. The Act of Parliament of 1836 reads "And it be enacted that the father or mother of every child born in England................shall within 42 days next after the day of every such birth give information upon being requested so to do to the Registrar, according to the best of his or her knowledge and belief of the several particulars hereby required to be known and registered touching the birth of such child provided always that it shall not be necessary to register the name of any father of a bastard child."

Now some registrars interpreted that quite freely and put father in even where the couple were not married and only mother or someone else was signing the register and some did not allow fathers details to be entered in the register. By about 1850 the situation had been clarified and the instructions read quite clearly "No putative father is to be allowed to sign an entry in the character of "Father" ". From that time, therefore there are 2 kinds of entries in the register

(1) Where the parents were married to one another, fathers details must be entered in the register and only one parent will sign the register (or some other informant)

(2) Where the parents were not married to one another there will be blanks in Column 4 (fathers name) and Column 6 (his occupation).

This situation lasted until the Registration Act of 1875 where the instruction read "The putative father of an illegitimate child cannot be required as father to give information respecting the birth. The name, surname and occupation of the putative father of an illegitimate child must not be entered except at the joint request of the father and mother; in which case both the father and mother must sign the entry as informants". There are therefore 3 kinds of entry after this Act:

(1) Described above

(2) Described above

(3) Where the parents are not married to one another but both attended the register office together, fathers details are entered in Column 4 and Column 6 and both parents sign.

Looked at a different way - if both parents have signed in Column 7 regardless of what names they are using then the parents were not married to one another at the time of the birth of the child. "

(from: http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm#COL4 )

Hi Ivy,

Below are the details from the 1861 census showing Mary Ann Hewer's parents, Joseph and Elizabeth, plus their children, including my great grandmother Mary, born Poulton 1859, and where it lists her brother as Aaron this is incorrect. This child's name was Esau, not Aaron, and Esau was the name given for when he was born in 1851. His son is also called Esau, and he was the Nephew of Mary Ann Murray (Hewer) in the 1901 census for 2 Quay Street in Gloucester you have mentioned above. I did find Esau Senior living in Hendon, Middlesex in the 1911 census but his son Esau was not with him. I will reply to your other query below the details of the Hewer family.

HEWER, Joseph Head Married M 39 1822 Cowman
Poulton, Gloucestershire
HEWER, Elizabeth Wife Married F 39 1822
HEWER, William Son M 17 1844 Agricultural Labourer, Poulton
Gloucestershire
HEWER, Thomas Son M 15 1846 Agricultural Labourer, Poulton
Gloucestershire
HEWER, John Son M 14 1847 Agricultural Labourer, Poulton
Gloucestershire
HEWER, Rachel Daughter F 9 1852 Scholar, Poulton
Gloucestershire
HEWER, Aaron Son M 10 1851 Scholar (WRONG NAME)
Gloucestershire
HEWER, James Son M 4 1857 Scholar, Cirencester
Gloucestershire
HEWER, Mary Daughter F 2 1859 , Poulton, Gloucestershire

Piece:
1785 Folio:
67 Page:
14 Registration District:
Cirencester

Civil Parish:
Poulton Municipal Borough:
Address:
Poulton County:
Gloucestershire

Apparently, because John Murray was in another County (Preston, Cirencester) when his daughter Minnie Kate was born in Cowley, Oxfordshire, from what I understand from Oxford Record Office, he had to sign the Deed of Declaration to confirm that he was the father of the child, and perhaps he had to do this so that he could have his name on the Birth Certificate? I had asked Oxford RO what this meant because I had wanted to know if it had anything to do with whether he and Mary were married or not, and I was told that they would have had to have been married for him to sign the Deed of Declaration (unless they were lying!) because he was not living in the same area as the birth took place. However, I have never found a marriage for them yet and I've been looking since 1996!

Hope this helps Ivy.

Many thanks
Kind regards
Hilda

Is this the 1851 census entry for Mary?

I note that for the four families on the same page (Bishop, Hampshire, Hewer and Hewer), living in Poulton in Gloucestershire, all but two individuals claim that they were born in Poulton in Wiltshire??

Name: Mary Hewer
Age: 11 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Hewer
Mother's name: Ann Hewer
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Poulton, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Poulton
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Cirencester
Sub-registration district: Cotswold
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Household schedule number: 12
Piece: 1968
Folio: 573
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hewer 28
Ann Hewer 24
Elizabeth Hewer 6
Sarah Hewer 3
Mary Hewer 11 Mo

Could you tell us more about the deed of declaration that you mention above?

"....when the first child was born in April 1884, in Cowley, Oxfordshire, Mary was then a Murray. John was working away at the time of the birth, as a Groom in Preston, Cirencester, and as they were married he was able to sign a Deed of Declaration to say that he was the Father of the child."

Do you have the birth certificate, or a baptism for the first child?

In the context of your serach for the marriage of John and Mary

-just adding the 1891 and 1901 census entries for Mary Ann Murr*y (nee Hewer)

1891:
Name: Mary Murry
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Cauldon, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Cirencester
Ecclesiastical parish: Cirencester
Town: Cirencester
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Cirencester
Sub-registration district: Cirencester
ED, institution, or vessel: 9

Piece: 2033
Folio: 12
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Murry 33
John Murry 5
Elizabeth Murry 3
Kate Murry 1

1901:
Name: Mary Murray
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Murray
Gender: Female
Where born: Penlton, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Gloucester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Nicholas
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Gloucester
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 1

Household schedule number: 51
Piece: 2425
Folio: 9
Page Number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
John Murray 43
Mary Murray 40
Elizabeth Murray 13
Kate Murray 10
Joseph Murray 7
Ellen Murray 4
Evan Hewer 24

Related thread -

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1259504

Many thanks to everyone else who replied to my query last year. I have noted all the information you sent.

Kind regards
Hilda

Hi Jax and Hi Liam,

As I wrote a message on one of my other threads I have copied a message for you both from one of my other threads to explain the current situaiton to you both since we were last in contact in February last year. I thought this would be easier than writing it all out again. Hope you don't mind me doing it this way.

As you will see it was started on the 18th February 2011, just a few days before the devastating earthquake we had in Christchurch, New Zealand at 12.54 pm on the 22nd February, and as I lived through that earthquake and therefore "fled" to another part of the South Island of New Zealand I have been "out of action" for most of the last year or so, and have only just started getting back into Genes.

As you know, we mentioned a John Murray born in Newport, Shropshire last time we were in contact. Well, surprise! surprise! I have finally found out that my gt grandgather. John Murray, WAS actually born in Newport, Shropshire and not in Newport, Mon (as the Enumerator had stated on the 1901 census AND on John Murray's Death Certificate in 1901). I have also found out that my gt grandfather's parents were Thomas Murrey and Katherine Kelly (Murrey spelt with an e this time), and although they came from Ireland they were married in Newport, Shropshire, and as they were listed in the 1851 census for Newport, Shropshire I also have the names of their children as well, including my gt grandfather, John. I only found out all this information last month because, on the death certificate for my grandfather's sister, under the column headed "Occupation" it has "Daughter of John Patrick Murray of Newport, Salop", the most important word being "of", which told me that he came from the Newport in Shropshire, not the one in Monmouthshire. What a great find (or realisation!) after looking for 15 years! I just wish I could find his marriage to Mary Ann Hewer in Poulton/Oxford/Gloucester or anywhere else! No luck so far though.

Kind regards
Hilda

Hi Jax and Hi Liam, thank you both for replying to my posting, and many apologies for not replying sooner, but I thought Genes sent through an email to say I had messages from my posting, and as I had not received any from Genes I thought I had had no replies - sorry about that.

Yes Jax I have had a look briefly at the other trees but, as far as I can remember, none of the Murrays in the list stipulated a birth in Newport, Mon. It is also probable that it is my "tree" in Ancestry that states they "... married in 1884 in Birmingham..." but I don't know where that came from, unless it was because my grandfather's sister was born in 1884, but it wasn't in Birmingham, but Cowley, Oxfordshire; my grandfather, also John Murray, was born in Selly Oak, Birmingham but in 1885 but,as Mary Ann Murray worked in The Manor House in Yarnton, Oxfordshire in 1881 when she was still Mary Ann Hewer, and the first child of her and John Murray Senior was born in Cowley, Oxfordshire in 1884, when Mary was then known as Mary Ann Murray, I would have thought they would have married in Oxfordshire, but no marriage has been found.

Hi Liam, yes, I was thinking also that my John Murray could have been born in Newport, Shropshire, and not Newport, Mon, and the secretary of the Gwent FHS where I am a member also thinks this as well. The problem is that the only John Murray I found after 1871 who was born in Newport, Shropshire was in the 1891 census, working as a Valet in Warwickshire, showing that he was born in 1854 (too early for my John), and then I found him again in the 1901 census in Tetbury, again showing he was born in Newport, Shropshire, but this time it stated he was born in 1860! He was with his wife, Mary Ann, and although her birth year was the same as my Mary Ann, the birth place was different.

However, my Mary Ann, and John Murray, appear in the 1901 census in Gloucester, showing John as being born in Newport, Mon, and whether the birth place is correct or not, the family in this entry is correct, because Mary Ann and John did have the children mentioned, atlhough my grandfather, John Murray Junior, is not there because I found him working at Pound Farm in Waddon, Gloucestershire, as a 16 year old boy on a farm (although the enumerator had put 14, which was wrong).

I did find a John Murray on the 1881 census showing that he was born in Newport, Mon (which I don't think I had ever found previously), but again this is not my John Murray, because this one is married to a Jannet, and they were still together in 1901, whereas my John died in October 1901.

So, I don't know how I am going to find John Murray/Murry's parents and family. I have checked with the secretary of Gwent FHS for schools in Newport, Mon but she told me that there were hardly any schools in Newport in the mid 1850's/1860's where John could have gone to school, so I thought I would try schools (if any) in Newport, Shropshire, because I would have thought he would have gone to "learn his letters" somewhere?

Anyway, thanks to you and Jax again for your kind help.

Hilda Jean

Hi' Kiwijean,
Possible connection- 1871 Census
Old Workhouse Lane, Newport, Shropshire,

John Murray, head aged 50 born Mayo,Ireland.
Catherine Murray,wife aged 45 born,Co Cavan,Ireland.
John Murray, juvenile aged 11 born ,Shropshire .
is it possible that your John was born in Newport, Shropshire ? and not in Newport, Wales.
Regards
Liam

Is that your tree on Ancestry that states they married in 1884 in Birmingham? not that I can see a record for it at the moment. Trouble is they may not have married at all it was not unusual

jax

Have tou tried the search trees to see if anyone else has these people in their tree then you can contact them

jax

Hi all Murrays. I sent this message out originally in 2006 but have still not resolved my "brick wall". Perhaps we now have some new members on GenesReunited who may have a link to a JOHN PATRICK (or Philip) MURRAY (or MURRY), born in 1858 or 1859, apparently in Newport, Mon, South Wales; (I think John’s parents came from Ireland, so I would think Patrick is the proper middle name). Do any new members have anyone in their family tree who could be John Patrick Murray/Murry’s parents, a brother, or a cousin of this John Murray? He was my great grandfather, and was married to MARY ANN HEWER, who was born in Poulton, Wiltshire in 1859, although to date I have still not been able to find any record of their marriage anywhere, and because of this I do not know who John’s parents were, and I would really love to find them!

John and Mary must have married some time between 1881 and 1884 as Mary was single in 1881 when she was working at Yarnton Manor in Oxfordshire, but when the first child was born in April 1884, in Cowley, Oxfordshire, Mary was then a Murray. John was working away at the time of the birth, as a Groom in Preston, Cirencester, and as they were married he was able to sign a Deed of Declaration to say that he was the Father of the child. They also went on to have other children, namely JOHN MURRAY (b. Oct 1885 – my grandfather); ELIZABETH MURRAY (Dec 1887); REBECCA KATE MURRAY (Jan 1890); JOSEPH MURRAY (Apr 1893); and ALBINA ELLEN MURRAY (June 1896).
JOHN (Patrick or Philip) MURRAY died in October 1901, and on his Death Certificate it states that he was born in Newport, Mon, and that he was aged 42 at the time of his death, which means that he had either reached his birthday that year or, that his 43rd birthday was still to come.

Unfortunately, because there are such a lot of records missing for Newport in 1861, either because pages are missing or the whole book is missing, I have not been able to find a Birth in Newport for my great grandfather. The 1901 census is the only census where I have found a John Murray whose birth was shown as Newport, Mon, and I know this is correct from the family he is listed with, i.e. his wife Mary (nee Hewer), and their children Elizabeth, Kate, Joseph, and Ellen.

It had been suggested to me by one or two people I have spoken with that perhaps John and Mary were not married but, when Mary Ann married a Thomas Davies in 1904 in the district of Hereford and Gloucester her status was revealed as Widow and her surname was Murray, so I would assume from that that she had been married to John Murray.

If any kind soul can help in any way with the above I would value their
comments.

Sorry this posting is so long folks, but wanted to give as much info as I could.

Many thanks
Hilda