Find Ancestors

you did take my point though ...

There was no Sylvia E Hill born in 1934

and your Sylvia E Hill did not declare a previous marriage when she married in 1957, and her children's birth registrations all show mother's surname Hill

there are several deaths recorded after 1969 for women named Sylvia Betty born 1934 to 2005 ... and of course someone born 1934 could still be living ...

Carter was born 28 March in Sussex
Jakulis was born 8 March

Jakulis was born Hughes
Carter would be more difficult to find a marriage (name) for

there's no marriage for a Sylvia B Hill after 1949
there's no death of a Sylvia B Hill of the right age at death

what did Sherlock Holmes say ?

'How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?'

the thing wtih family history is that it is seldom possible to rule out everything because we can't know we have found and considered everything ... but unless we an find that Sylvia B Hill doing something else after she was born ................

She actually died Sylvia Elizabeth Mohammed, her surname from her 1957 as she never actually married my friends dad. On that record it states the date as 24 MAR 1934, three days earlier than on the birth certificate we have for the Sylvia B we are unsure about, and we know that Sylvia was a Hill on the marriage to the Mohammed.

we know that Sylvia was a Hill right ?

so ... was there a Sylvia Elizabeth Hill born in March 1934 ?

unfortunately a birth in late march could have been registered in the next quarter ... but actually no Sylvia E Hill was registered in the first two quarters of 1934.


oh and as I was saying Sylvia was 23ish when she married, very young to have a retired father I would say ... the Alfred born in 1890 would have been 67ish when Sylvia married ...

Sylvia was married in 1957, so making her 22 or 23 I cannot remember exactly, and her father who was Leonard Hill on that certificate was a retired gas fitter and not listed as deceased. Sadly Sylvia herself died in 1980 and my friends dad (not the same man as she married in 1957) died in 1993.

The date on the death record For Sylvia Elizabeth is March 24th 1934 whilst the birth record for Sylvia Betty gives March 27th 1934, though I'm not sure on what day they celebrated her birthday.

This is the issue I'm having, there is quite a bit of evidence to make me think Sylvia B & Sylvia E are the same along with Alfred Elijah Leonard Hill and Leonard Hill, but there is enough to make me doubt it too.

Cheers for all this folks

Rhys

Betty is certainly a diminutive for Elizabeth.

Not sure it would ever work in reverse

When/where did Sylvia marry? How old was she on her wedding day?

Does the birth cert match exactly the DOB as per the death cert? (Assuming the death was after1970)

I would guess that Sylvia Betty either thought the Betty really meant Elizabeth ... and had no family around to clarify ... or thought Betty was a little common and opted for Elizabeth instead.

your friend's mum is deceased presumably ?

does the actual date of birth on the birth certificate match your friend's mum's birthday ?

when did Sylvia E marry ?

edit ... 1957 ?

I'm thinking that if she was in her 20s she was a little young for her father to be retired unless he was an older person when she was born ... which would fit with the Alfred Leonard E Hill birth in 1890 ...

do you know that he was living when Sylvia married ? could he have been a deceased retired gas fitter ?

this death would be close to an 1890 birth ...

Name: Alfred E Hill
Death Registration Month/Year: 1954
Age at death (estimated): 62
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 9c
Page: 26

as would this later one

Name: Leonard E Hill
Death Registration Month/Year: 1967
Age at death (estimated): 77
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 9c
Page: 651

Flick> It is regarding Sylvia B Hill (1934) My friends mum was Sylvia Hill but had the middle name Elizabeth on her marriage certificate and death certificate. We are not sure if Sylvia Betty Hill is the same as Sylvia Elizabeth Hill, as Betty is a derivation of Elizabeth is it not.

On Sylvia B's birth certificate Alfred Leonard Hill is a labourer at the Corporation Gas works, and on Sylvia E's marriage certificate Leonard Hill is a retired gas fitter.

1911 census as per earlier post

Person: HILL, Alfred
Address: 1 Bk 13 Leach St Birmingham

Cost:
You will be charged 10 credits for a transcript and 30 credits for an image, unless you have purchased a subscription for this set of records.



HILL, William Head Married
27 years M 44 1867 Cupalo Man Birmingham VIEW
HILL, Betsy Wife Married F 46 1865 Birmingham VIEW
HILL, George Son Single M 22 1889 Labourer Birmingham VIEW
HILL, Alfred Son Single M 20 1891 Tube Drawer Birmingham VIEW
HILL, Walter Son Single M 17 1894 Polisher Brass Birmingham VIEW
HILL, Edith Daughter Single F 14 1897 Stair Rod Worker Birmingham VIEW
HILL, Charles Son Single M 11 1900 Birmingham VIEW
HILL, Rose Daughter Single F 6 1905 Birmingham VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
18022 Reference:
RG14PN18022 RG78PN1095 RD384 SD1 ED34 SN209

Registration District:
Birmingham Sub District:
Ladywood Enumeration District:
34 Parish:
Birmingham

Rhys

Can you say what prompted this quest?

Is Sylvia B Hill (1934) related to you?

What was Alfred's occupation? (On the birth cert)

As far as I know, the word 'nee' does not normally appear on a child's birth cert...........it would be considered too specific.

Nee means maiden name - previous married name would be put as "formerly". But of course they might not have married at all!
jan

I think I would get that 1890 birth certificate, it really seems to be the only person who could be him and it would give info that could then identify him further, find siblings in censuses for instance, all of that could help eventually

I can't find a death that fits but searching before 1970 at Ancestry is difficult because it won't accept the year of birth as a search criterion for an exact search ........

brummiejan> I have and it is Leonard Hill but no others of voting age. In 1939 a different Sylvia Hill appears there, and it states she is not married but no idea on how she is related to all this.

Rhys

According to a birth certificate of a Sylvia Hill, at the same address in 1934 her parents were Alfred Leonard Hill and Edith Hill nee Smith. But would the nee be her birth name or as you suggested a previous married name, or were there no set rules and it could be either.

Have you checked electoral register after 1945?

Might this be related at all do you think ?

Name: Alfred L E Hill
Spouse Surname: Beecham - Ellen
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1959
Registration district: Birmingham
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 9c
Page Number: 1196

No births to that couple that I can see ... could have been a late in life marriage ...

( I know it's too recent to put here ordinarily as the people may be living ... but there's no birth for an Alfred L E Hill after 1916 to account for that groom ... )


edit

if a late in life marriage this could be Ellen previously married

Name: Ellen Burke
Spouse Surname: Beecham - Leslie
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1929
Registration district: Coventry
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 1124


no, ruling that Ellen out, will leave it here for that

Name: Ellen Beecham
Birth Date: 5 Nov 1907
Death Registration Month/Year: 1974
Registration district: Coventry
Inferred County: Warwickshire, West Midlands
Volume: 33
Page: 0155

Name: Leslie Beecham
Birth Date: 24 Dec 1902
Death Registration Month/Year: 1970
Registration district: Coventry
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 9c
Page: 1711

Could be chrissie, though the Leonard and Elijah are the wrong way around, compared to what I have, but given what I've come across nothing suprises me. A marriage certificate would be also brilliant to confirm the two of them.

Rhys

I think I was editing as you posted ... how about that one in 1890? Right place and only the birth cert would give the full given names


edit

only option for that one in 1911

HILL ALFRED 1891 20 Birmingham Warwickshire

but I think one would need someone with a full subscription to see who else is in the household

chrissiex> I assumed that wasn't the one as he wouldn't have been of voting age in 1930 when we first come across him, he must be over 21 then, so a birth would have to be before 1910. I did find a death I think in 1950 in York, but that Alfred E L Hill was 80 IIRC, and I wasn't sure about that one.

brummiejan> I've used that site, its where I got the information from originally, its good value though, pennies for each page.

Flick> I have checked regarding Edith dying and I have found a few options and am working on them currently. I would also like to find a marriage between them and even with her maiden name of Smith I am struggling to find one.

Thanks all

Rhys

do you have his birth and death for his name ?

he isn't this one

Births Dec 1914
HILL Alfred E L Payne Pancras 1b 42

because that is probably this person

Name: Alfred Edward L Hill
Birth Date: 14 Oct 1914
Death Registration Month/Year: 1970
Registration district: St Albans
Inferred County: Hertfordshire
Volume: 4b
Page: 635


I can't find a birth for an Alfred Elijah Hill or another Alfred E L Hill 1911-1919

I might have guessed his father was an Alfred so he was called by a middle name and Elijah wasn't the name of choice, lol

or father was Leonard, it was really his first name and he went by middle name Alfred


how about this one?

Name: Alfred Leonard E Hill
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Birmingham (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 218