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Go to the top of the class that lady! never thought of that Anne. I shall add searching for who has the records to my list. Am planning a BIG getting it together day on Saturday.

I MAY have found the burial for George Galloway....

George Galloway
Aged 75 years
Pensioner
Died 18th Jan 1895 at 10 Warren Lane, Woolwich
Buried 28th Jan 1895
Buried in section X, no. 275
Unconsecrated ground
Burial ground of the Woolwich Burial Board in the Parish of Plumstead.

Possible?

Caroline,
Is there a way to access the records for Charlotte being sent to i the Industrial School? Even the School Records themselves?

I have managed to find similar type records in Scotland, which provided a mass of information.
I am sure that English ones would be similar .

Me again.

I think we can discount the George Galloway who is an inmate of the workhouse in 1881 as not mine, thanks.

This chap is a silk weaver whose place of birth is given as Bethnal Green.

Doing well so far. I have searched and searched and can find no record at all of a George Galloway or Gallaway marrying an Elizabeth Reed at all. There are records of a few other George Galloways but not mine. The other ones are Born in Newcastle/civil engineer/silk weaver. Nothing comes close to mine.

I know he could have changed his trade but, in late 1800's I think it unlikely, especially with so many mouths to feed, that he would have done.

It's starting to feel right that there was no legal marriage just an adopting of the surname Reed to his own. Then Elizabeth dying, the older children married and with families not wanting to take the little ones. If Elizabeth died I 1876, elizabeth jnr would be 16 and working, Jane would be 13 and probably earning something, Frederick would be 12 and probably earning something, but Charlotte would have been 9 years old and just a mouth to feed. Also there may be this other younger boy Alfred who would have been only 4. George Galloway/Reed would have been aged 64 by 1876. Perhaps he struggled on for another two years before he had no choice but for all 3 of them to go to the workhouse? The electoral roll shows him still living at Peace Cottages in 1878.

Anyone think I might be on the right track here?

Yes Chris, I am speaking to a second cousin who MAY have a birth certificate for Charlotte....fingers crossed! Will nag her again LOL. If not, then I shall have to buy it. You are right, it would answer a few questions hopefully.

Thanks again

Thanks for those Chris, don't you love the name Hornbuckle LOL!!

Would be interesting to see the 1867 Birth Cert., might also help find details as to George being born Suffolk or Middx...apart from burning question of Elizabeth and her maiden name, lol...

Chris :)

The 1878 marriage of William George Hornbuckle (25yrs) and Emma Read (21yrs)

They BOTH lived at 15 Peace Cottages at the time of marriage
Witnesses:: William Edward Read and M.A Newman.
Father of bride: George Read,. Occ: Tailor
Father of the groom: John William Hornbuckle. Occ: Boot Maker.

Edit:
Chris beat me to it!

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about William George Hornbuckle
Name: William George Hornbuckle
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 15 May 1853
Father's Name: John William Hornbuckle
Mother's Name: Ann Hornbuckle
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: William Edward Read
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Mary Read (Widow)
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 8 Jan 1882
Parish: St Pancras Old St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Register
(both Fathers as Dead)


(looking at above, noticed witness, W G Hornbuckle, remembered seeing E Hornbuckle as witness for Charlotte and Edward Caplin)


Marriages Jun 1878 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
HORNBUCKLE William George Pancras 1b 231
Read Emma Pancras 1b 231

Chris :)

Name: Emma Read
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Age: 21
Spouse Name: William George Hornbuckle
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 9 Jun 1878
Parish: Regent Square
Borough: Camden
Father Name: George Read (Tailor)
Spouse Father Name: John William Hornbuckle (BootMaker)
Register Type: Parish Register
(address for both as, 15, Peace Cottages)

Caroline and Roots,
Chris looked at the death for Elizabeth Ann Read for 1876 .
This woman lived at Peace Cottages at the time of her death.,,, same as the 1871 census. It must be her!

I keep thinking that although the lodger was entered as George Galloway on the 1861 census, could he really have been called George Galloway Read?

Perhaps the two Georges were related?
This family is almost ( but not quite) as bad as my own , completely dysfunctional ancestors!

Thanks Mrs Rootie, lunch? What's lunch?? Hope you have something absolutely fattening and lovely.

It's quite intriguing isn't it. As I said, I am coming more and more to thinking that George Galloway stepped into George Reeds shoes when George Reed died. I wonder if they married - am searching just in case for a marriage. I am swayed that perhaps they did not; my thinking is mora and more that he simply added the REED onto his own name making it Galloway-Reed, which would have made life simpler all round: no changing of anyone elses name.

Also, if Elizabeth does die in 1876 it would give more weight to Charlotte being in the workhouse - perhaps he decides he doesn't want responsibility for the children?

I shall soon be applying for my private investigative badge!

Caroline, firstly no problem about meal on Tuesday, OH works late and eats out. I was enjoying myself on here anyway!

Reading (excuse slight pun) through this again, I now think that George Read had died and was quickly replaced in Elizabeth's affections by George Galloway. Understandable and not uncommon as he was already living there and she had all those children. It also may go part way to explain son George marrying quite young - perhaps he disliked or resented George Galloway.

It would appear that Charlotte knew that George Galloway was her father but appeared on the census as Read, the same surname as her siblings as the older children probably didn't want to change their surname to Galloway as they would remember their father.

If Elizabeth Ann had died that would explain the children being put into care but that raises the question of who is the Elizabeth Ann is on the 1911 census?

I have got to go out shortly to do my "lady who lunches" bit today but will try to look back later.

Hi Jill

Thanks for that.

The big issue at the moment is whether the original George Reed has died and been replaced by George Galloway. Both George, very similar age, both cabmen. When the eldest son marries he is aged 20yrs and 10 months and states his father is deceased. When the youngest daughter Charlotte marries for the second time in 1898, she names her father as George Galloway Reed. The lodger at 13 Hastings Street in 1861 is George Galloway.

Did the original George die? Was his place taken by the lodger? Is the lodger really the father of the younger three children?

More investigating this evening. My poor husband is starving, the cat has left home, the sink is pilled with dirty dishes, the post is stacked up in front of the front door, the bed is unmade....LOL....

On the Electoral Roll George Reed is living at 15 Peace Cottages (dwelling house) between 1873 and 1878.

Not sure how helpful this is ...

Anne if you can give me the answer to that I shall be a very happy me!

Chris I am edging on the death doings being right, shall be looking into this more over the next day or so, thank you for all your help.

Mrs Rootie have you had time to do anything else today? Do I need to send apologies to your family for a late meal this evening LOL?

You know when you just get a feeling something is right? I am having that feeling for the George Galloway slipping into the shoes of George Reed without the wedding certificate, does anyone know if there was such. Thing as a deed poll name change doodah in the 1800's? I am wondering why he would be George Galloway Reed on Charlottes wedding notice otherwise, it would explain things wouldn't it?

Please sleep well all, you must be jiggered after running around after me all day!
Goodnight
X

So the question remains...
Who is the impostor on the 1871 census?
Was this man really there on census night?
Or did Elizabeth Ann forget to tell the enumerator that her husband had died?

Mrs Rootie you are wonderful, how have you managed to find all this stuff so quickly?? I am feeling such a klutz now LOL?

You have helped immensely to clear a few things up and make this picture easier to see. Biggest thank you x

My mistake Anne, just seems like the HUGEST coincidence doesn't it? He is on the 1861 as George Galloway but we don't know when he vacated the property and Charlotte wasn't born until 1867... On the 1871 census, there is only George Reed listed.

Hi Chris,
I am certain that you have posted the correct deaths for George Reed and his wife, Elizabeth Ann, which would account for Charlotte being in the Industrial School at 1881
Based on the Death Registration for George Reed, which is 2nd quarter of 1866, he could not be Charlotte's biological father.
She was born Sep 1867

Caroline,
look back at the thread:
George Galloway is not listed in the 1871 household when Charlotte is 3yrs old
He is on the 1861 census, 6yrs before Charlotte was born.
He is not listed on any census as George Reed Galloway or George Galloway Reed.

Possible spanner in the works, although there is no age given...

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about George Galloway
Name: George Galloway
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1865
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 103 (click to see others on page)

(looking in!)

1876 Elizabeth Ann Read Death...(address as, 15, Peace Cottages)

1866 George Reed Death...(abode, St. Pancras Workhouse)


(had a few credits for Deceased Online website) (Burials)

Chris :)