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If you're barking Anne then we are howling together honey!!

This is what I was wondering....when Charlotte is three, George Galloway is living in the house. George Reed is aged 59. I was wondering if Mrs Reed and lodger George are "friendly" and instead of marrying her he just adopts the name of Reed to become George Galloway Reed, like a hyphenated name.

Any thoughs?

Marriages Dec 1908

CAPLIN Nellie Christina Poplar 1c 777
LEE Charles James Poplar 1c 777
WIGGER William George Poplar 1c 777
WILTSHIRE Annie Poplar 1c 777

Marriages Mar 1917
CAPLIN Rosina M Lapham Bethnal G. 1c 223
Lapham Bertram A Caplin Bethnal G. 1c 223


1911

Name: Rosina Caplin
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Stepney
Civil parish: Stoke Newington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 33 Listria Park Stoke Newington N
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Servant (domestic)
Registration district: Hackney
Registration District Number: 11
Sub-registration district: Stoke Newington
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Piece: 1008
Household Members:
Name Age
Alexander Tertis 59
Anneta Tertis 48
Betty Weiesburg 90
Rosina Caplin 22

OOOH!I smell a rat!
Why does Charlotte name her father as George Galloway Read?
Unless I am mistaken ( not unusual for me)
Have a look at this....

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about George Reed
Name: George Reed
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1866
Age at Death: 56
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 92 (click to see others on page)
If this was Elizabeth's husband.... he could not be Charlotte's father!
Also means that son George was NOT lying about his father being dead when he married.

Is Charlotte the daughter of the man called George Galloway and not George Read?
Baptised as Charlotte Read: Parents George and Elizabeth
Technically, it does not actually say father was George Read, and of course looks exactly like all the other Read baptisms.
Is the man on the 1871 census actually that George Galloway using the name of Read?
Both Georges were cabbies and roughly the same age

Am I barking???

1891

Name: Charlotte Caplin
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Edward Caplin
Gender: Female
Where born: St Pancras, London, England
Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Lukes Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 39
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 312
Folio: 90
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Caplin 34
Charlotte Caplin 24
Florence Caplin 5
Rosina M Caplin 2
Ellis C Caplin 2/12


???

Births Sep 1886 Caplin Charlotte Florence Islington 1b 381


Births Mar 1889 Caplin Rosina Maud Stepney 1c 448


The Ellis on the census should be Ellie?

Births Mar 1891 CAPLIN Nellie Christina Mile End Old Town 1c 581


Those birthplaces match those given for the children on the census.

Caroline,
Just to clarify
Can you return to the 1861 census for the Read family at Hastings Street, St Pancras.
The lodger living with the Read family is called George Galloway not George Galloway Read/Reed
He is a widower, born in Windsor, Berkshire.

Working backwards a bit.

I think this may be Charlotte's mother in 1911

Name: Elizabeth Read
Age in 1911: 82
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation to Head: Mother-In-Law
Gender: Female
Birth Place: LONDON, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 71 Avenell Road, Highbury N
Marital Status: Widowed
Registration district: Islington
Registration District Number: 10
Sub-registration district: Highbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Piece: 991
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles H Parker 61
Elizabeth Parker 50 Married 30 years, 6 children born 4 living
Alice E Parker 25
Ada E Parker 21
Lily B Parker 15
Elizabeth Read 82
Gertrude Nickson 22


????

1891

Name: Elizabeth A Read
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch, London, England
Civil parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Davids
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 55a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 161
Folio: 63
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred S Luna 39
Emma Luna 33
Alfred F Luna 12
Thomas Luna 7
Elizabeth A Read 65

Anne, that's quite confusing as this is exactly where her daughter Florence ends up after Charlottes first husband dies in 1895. Florence is shown as an inmate here on the 1901 census and she did, indeed, go off into service from here. Apparently this place trained the children/inmates for either the army or service.

Shall investigate this more. It appears that when a family went to the St. Pancras area workhouse, the older children were despatched to Watford.

Thank you thank you thank you!!

I have looked and like Dea and Chris, I am certain that Charlotte was the child who was born and baptised in St Pancras 1867, daughter of George Reed and Elizabeth.
They are most definitely the family from both the 1861 and 1871 censuses.
Both addresses match in order, to those on the baptismal certs that have been unearthed.
However, has anyone found this family in 1881?
We know that the eldest, George is already married and with the exception of Charlotte, all the others will be classed as adults... I think this is Charlotte....1881 England Census about Charlotte Read
Name: Charlotte Read
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Gender: Female
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Watford
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Street Address: *****St Pancras Industrial Schools Leavesden *****
Education:
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Watford
Sub-registration district: Watford
ED, institution, or vessel: St Pancras Industrial Schools
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1439
Folio: 116
Page Number: 20

As this is an industrial School, there are many inmates, but only one other child called Read who was also born in St Pancras.
Cannot find this birth to see if George and Elizabeth had another child before disappearing/dying.
It may be a red herring

1881 England Census about Alfred Read
Name: Alfred Read
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Watford
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Street Address: St Pancras Industrial Schools Leavesden
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Watford
Sub-registration district: Watford
ED, institution, or vessel: St Pancras Industrial Schools
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1439
Folio: 116
Page Number: 20

Mrs Rootie, this one you gave me marries up with the census details of 1861 and 1871. The names and ages of the children are almost spot on to what I have for them. Have a Merit Mark!!

Name: Emma Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Feb 1857, b. 14 Dec. 1856
Father's Name: George Read, Cab Driver
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bloomsbury St George
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Address: Little Guildford Street.

Also Baptized the same day were her two brothers.

George Walter Read b. 28 August 1848
William Edward Read b. 3 July 1851

By 1871, the family has grown somewhat! There are now seven children and Charlotte (great granny) is the youngest aged approx 3

Those details you have found are REALLY helpful, thank you so much!

I am going to run out of Thank you's!! Honestly, I am so grateful to everyone.

Good heavens above!! I leave the site for a few hours and look what you all do?? how amazing are you??

I have searched and searched for Charlotte. The whole story as I am now aware of it is something like this, are you sitting comfortably?

My mums mum is called either Florence Charlotte OR Charlotte Florence. Never been able to trace a birth cert. Her mother is Charlotte Reed OR Florence Reed. The spelling of Reed was either REED or READ..

My mums mum was put into the poorhouse after her father died. He was Edward Caplin who died 25th Feb 1895 in 91 St. Dunstans Road, Mile End aged 37. On the 1891 census his age is 34 hers is 24. There was no contact between mother and daughter from the time she was sent away.

I worked on Charlotte being approx 27 when Edward dies, When Charlotte remarries to John Poole on 19th Nov 1906, she claims her age to be 34. She has a daughter with John Poole, Dorothy, who is born in 1905 but Charlotte puts her name on the birth certificate as Charlotte Poole even though they are not yet married for another year.

Charlottes death certificate states her age in 1945 as 74.

Confused yet? you soon will be!

Between Edwards death and Charlotte marrying John Poole, there is another marriage. There has always been family talk of this being a bigamous marriage.

As far as I have something to go by now, the groom was Walter Hand. He was already married. The brides father is given as George Galloway REED who is a cabman.
Going on this, I found a George Reed of approx the same age who had a daughter Charlotte in c1867. They were living at Peace Cottages. By 1871 when Charlotte is 4, Edward Caplins family is also living at Peace Cottages.
Now, I see on the census of 1871, that George Galloway Reed is a lodger living with George Reed and family, Peace Cottages and he is also a cabman. MY POOR HEAD!!

Please, if I have gone wrong, accept my sincerest apologies. I am finding this all very puddling!

What should I do? There is no one left to ask in the family, my mum is 91 and was always vague at the best of times bless her!

There is so much heresay but little fact to go on so I think I may have been floundering in the dark a bit :-(

Chris, I think that George Walter lied about his father being deceased when he married. Probably because he was under aged. His father is listed with the rest of the family in 1871.

Yes Anne. I think that we are agreed that the George Frederick Reed and Elizabeth Isabella Lucy Allison / Scarr marriage is no longer in the picture.

The baptisms of the children give the mother as Elizabeth Ann. I posted the George Read and Elizabeth Bassett marriage as a possibilty. The three oldest children were all baptised on the same day which made me think (probably erroneously) that the parents had maybe married later.

I think that the only way forward (or backwards) with this is to buy a birth certificate for one of the children to find out the mother's maiden surname.


EDIT

Caroline hasn't told us why she thought the 1850 marriage was the correct one.

Oh my goodness!
I was ambushed by my daughters and dragged away for some retail therapy.
I have returned and trying to dissect all that has gone on.

From what I have read, Caroline's ancestor Charlotte, could not be the daughter of George Reed and Elizabeth Allison or Scarr.
Charlotte was born in 1867.
" The G & E I have are married in Islington in 1850, apr-may-June quarter. And her name is Elizabeth Lucy Scarr"

Elizabeth Allison/Scarr/Reed seems just a bit too old.
This woman was 1st married 36yrs, before Charlotte's birth
Even if Elizabeth was around 16yrs old at the time of her 1st marriage, she would still be in her early/mid 50's at the time of this birth.

Do we agree that Caroline has identified the wrong marriage for Charlotte's parents... is that where we are now?
Are we now trying to find some confirmation that Charlotte's parents were probably Elizabeth Ann Fox Bassett and George Reed who married in 1856?

Yes, I agree Dea. If the original thread had been there I would have looked at it as I don't remember it from before.

Now what do you think of this Dea please? A possibility?

Name: Elizabeth Ann Fox Bassett
Spouse Name: George Reed <<<<<<<<< Coachman
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Jul 1856
Parish: Paddington St John
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: William Bassett, Policeman
Spouse Father Name: George Reed, Carpenter
Register Type: Parish Register

Both of Full age and living Torrington Mews

Well done Mrs Rootie :-)

This is why threads should not be deleted - I too remember the 'crayon maker' now but, unfortunately, not all of it !!!

Dea Xxx

This looks like Frederick's birth to get the mother's maiden surname.

Births Sep 1864 READ Frederick Arthur Pancras 1b 83

Name: Jane Emily Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 9 Mar 1863, b. 14 Feb 1863
Father's Name: George Read, Coachman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Jun 1860, b. 16 June 1860
Father's Name: George Read, Cabman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers
Address: Hastings Street



Fredricka on the census is actually this child!

Name: Frederick Arthur Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 Jul 1864, 30 May 1864
Father's Name: George Read, Coachman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers
Address: Wilstead Street

(aah!, the previous Caplin 'Threads')...


Name: Edward Coplin
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Charlotte Read
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Jul 1886
Parish: St Pancras Old St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Father Name: Edward Coplin (Tailor's Crayon Maker)
Register Type: Parish Register

(nothing other than Dead, written for Father)


Name: Charlotte Caplin (Widow)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Age: 30
Spouse Name: Walter Haud (Hand) (Widower)
Spouse Age: 51
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Oct 1898
Parish: Limehouse St Luke
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Galloway Reed (Coachman)
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Haud
Register Type: Parish Register

Chris :)


Name: George Walter Read
Age: Minor
Spouse Name: Caroline Baker
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Jun 1869
Parish: St Pancras Parish Chapel
Borough: Camden
Father Name: George Read (Cabman. Deceased)
Spouse Father Name: George Robinson Baker
Register Type: Parish Register
(address as, Hastings St.)

Name: Emma Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Feb 1857, b. 14 Dec. 1856
Father's Name: George Read, Cab Driver
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bloomsbury St George
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Address: Little Guildford Street.

Also Baptized the same day were her two brothers.

George Walter Read b. 28 August 1848
William Edward Read b. 3 July 1851