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Also, why is Martha calling herself Elizabeth Holder, late Naptin, formerly Goouch on Frank Holders birth cert with no mention of the Pitt marrige yet when she mrries Vandersteen in 1960 she is Pitt?

So many questions, sorry :-S

In the 1911 census there are 2 Alfred Holders in West Ham.

One is mine listed as being born 1881 Stratford, the other is still living with his family and is listed as being born 1884 Plaistow.

Can I be confident that the above record belongs to my Alfred Holder despite the Army records saying his DoB is 1884?

The image states that he is present from 1901 - 1906. As Martha married Alfred Pitt in 1905 this records would seemingly prove that Alfred Pitt and Alfred Holder are 2 different people.

I have found a British Army Service Record

First name(s): Alfred
Last name: HOLDER
Calculated year of birth: 1884
Parish of birth: Leytonstone
Town of birth: Stratford
County of birth: Essex
Age at attestation: 17 years 5 months
Attestation date: 7 August 1901
Attestation corps: ESSEX REGT
Attestation soldier number: 8318
Discharge rank:
Discharge corps: Essex Regiment - 44th & 56th
Foot Discharge soldier number:
The National Archives reference: WO96 / 766 / 410

I have received 2 of the certificates.

Frank Holder birth cert reads:

Father - Alfred Holder, Market Porter
Mother - Elizabeth Holder (late Naptin, Formerly Goouch)

Alfred Holder death certificate reads:

Date of death: 8th November 1932
Age: 49 years
Occupation: Army War Pensioner
Informant: E Holder (Widow)

There is something from another document which is added on to the death cert after column 9 but the writing is very small. When I work out what it says I will add this info as well.

Hope to have the Naptin/Pitt marriage cert tomorrow

Snap!!

Sorry, I meant 1903. He died 1st Quarter so Martha probably didn't even know she was pregnant

Jayne, that one was from Ancestry.

If Harry died 1901 then who was Lily May's father?

EDIT: Forget that! It was 1903 he died so Martha may not have even known she was pregnant when he died.

Another good find. I don't know how you find these. I use FMP and haven't seen any of this.

Harry died in the 1st Q of 1901, as you can see Lily wasn't born until November.

I've found that site very useful Jayne.

I just came across Lily May's baptism:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Lily May Naptin
Record Type: Birth
Estimated Birth Date: 22 Nov 1903 (baptised 04 Dec 1903)
Father's Name: Harry Naptin
Mother's Name: Margaret Naptin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Poplar
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

She was actually born in the Poplar workhouse. It's noted that she was legitimate. Harry's name has been inserted above as though an afterthought, perhaps he'd already died by then?

The mother's name is clearly written as Margaret, but I'd guess it was an error. She was admitted from the Poplar parish.

MarieCeleste, thank you for that link. A very interesting website and certainly clarified a couple of things. I have had problems with name changes before, it can get incredibly annoying :-)

Chris Ho, that is a great find, thank you so much.

Baptism (Find My Past)
Day:23
Month:June
Year:1901
Forename:Edward
Othernames:Philip
Surname:Naptin
Fathers forenames:Henry
Fathers occupation:Labourer
Mothers forenames:Martha Elizabeth
Birth date:
Address:246 Manchester Road
Location of church:Isle of Dogs
Parish:St John, Cubitt Town
Church address:East Ferry Road
Entry No:671
Source Ref:X085/180
Original Note:Alleged Birth Date 7th June
Record source:Docklands Ancestors

(saw the above)

Chris :)

Just to clarify, you can't take names on marriage certificates as being 100% accurate (or any other info on them for that matter).

People may well marry in the name they were known as, not what they were registered as at birth.

The following link is an excellent resource as to what to expect (or not!) on certificates:
http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/marriages.htm#COL2

Because names are frequently transposed I' d be quite confident that the two marriages are the same woman.

Thank you to everyone who has looked up records for me.

I have phoned Stratford and they also hold some records for Fyfield Industrial school. Visit is booked for next Tuesday. Maybe I will find some answers there :-)

I have also reordered Certificates for Frank Holder (1908) birth, Alfred Holder death and the Pitt/Naptin marriage as it is probably quicker than waiting for people to unpack and find certificates.

I will add info as I get it.

I also wonder if after Harry died, she had to go into the work house? Hence why the children were taken in to care of guardianship? Are you far from London? As theses records could be interesting

Hmmm I would assume that in census/ electoral rolls you could vary names but surely not on marriage lines? Do you have the 1905 lines? As it would show formerly goouch possibly?

Sorry, I meant to say Edward, not Henry :-)

Thank you for all of the information.

The information on the Pitt/Naptin marriage and the Naptin births have been given to me by living family members who remember their grandmother Martha (although not their grandfather as he died in 1932). They also mention other relationships although Martha did not marry all of them. She often varied between Martha and Elizabeth depending on who she was with.

The b following Lily in the first message is for born. She was Lily M

Births Dec 1903
Naptin Lily May Poplar 1c 626

I was not aware of an Edward or a Henry so will ask relatives again (although most of them are pretty old now).

And the west ham union records (workhouse) records are held at: Stratford library London

http://www.newham.gov.uk/entertainmentandleisure/libraries/librarydetails/newhamarchivesandlocalstudieslibrary.htm

And the lily in 1911 is lily may not lily b and again it's a school she is in

Name Lily May Naptin
Relationship to Head of Household Inmate
Gender F
Age 7
Estimated Year of Birth 1904
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Unknown
Enumerator Information
Address Crouch Oak Road Addlestone
Parish Chertsey
Town Addlestone
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN3012 RD32 SD2 ED18 SN9999
Administrative County Surrey
Registration District Chertsey
Registration Sub District Chertsey
Enumeration District 18
Reference Information
Folio 37
Page 7
Piece 3012
RD number 32
SD number 2
ED number 18
Schedule 9999
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Just a quick question, the NAPTIN births do you know of these for sure or just what records you have pulled up? As I don't know if you know London well but I am from there and I found when searching my tree for poplar way that mile end old town appeared and it was a case of a the next street would be different registry offices it was madness, and some of London appeared as Middlesex also as I saw this and wasn't sure and didn't want to confuse:


Birth Record
Name Edward Philip Naptin
Year of Registration 1901
Quarter of Registration Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Mile End Old Town
Registration County London
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 1C
Volume Page 491

Also appears in 1911 in Ongar with Henry in a school:

Name Edward Naptin
Relationship to Head of Household Inmate
Gender M
Age 9
Estimated Year of Birth 1902
Occupation School Part Time
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth London Poplar
Enumerator Information
Address Industrial School
Parish Fyfield
Type of Building School
Number of Rooms 14
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN9809 RG78PN518 RD190 SD1 ED6 SN61
Administrative County Essex
Registration District Ongar
Registration Sub District Bobbingworth
Enumeration District 6
Reference Information
Folio 123
Page 2
Piece 9809
RD number 190
SD number 1
ED number 6
Schedule 61
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