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PM from Tracey

Hi Cherilyn,
Do you have any ideas where else to find him, I would like to go back
on his line. I know he was born In Holland, Broek in Waterland,
would that be a clue?
Regards
Tracey


Waterland is in North Holland (Noord-Holland), above Amsterdam. Most of the Kramers seem to have come from around there. My dad was born in South Holland and all his lot are from there - Gerrit is definitely a Dutch name. I would not have placed Kramer there, but there are/were lots of them.

Unfortunately there are several Gerrit Kramers born or married around the right time in that area (on familysearch). Not sure how you can proceed without his mum's name. I don't think the early SA marriage would have it. :-(

May also be spelled Geert and surname may appear as Cramer. Good luck.

Great work, Gins, a father's name defnitely a breakthru

Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980
Name: Helman (Labourer) & Mary Elizabeth Kramer
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1903
State: Victoria
District: Wimmera
Subdistrict: Nhill

Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980
Name: Helman Kramer
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1909
State: Victoria
District: Wimmera
Subdistrict: Nhill

Also listed

Kramer Eve Female 1909 Victoria Wimmera Nhill
Kramer Harmen Male 1909 Victoria Wimmera Nhill
Kramer Lillie Enid Female 1909 Victoria Wimmera Nhill
Kramer Mary Elizabeth Female 1909 Victoria Wimmera Nhill
Kramer Maudie Roseneath

Leading on from Cheri post

Australia Marriage Index, 1788-1950

Name: Henry Kramer
Father's Name: Gerrit Kramer <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse Name: Mary Elizabeth Matthews
Spouse's Father's Name: Matthew Matthews
Marriage Date: 18 Jan 1865
Marriage Place: Gawler
Registration Place: Barossa, South Australia
Page Number: 421
Volume Number: 60

Hi Tracey, happy to help. You should reply to your threads on the thread itself (the box at the end of the messages, then click green box 'Submit')

I have the Digger Cds with Vic bdms. SA bdms are online now. Rest from NLA Trove (notices).

Looked for his arrival but no luck. His ship may have been heading elsewhere via Adelaide (eg Fremantle or Sydney/Melbourne). If it was not his destination he would not be listed (ie if he did 'jump ship'). He may also have been crew.

Let me know if you would like or need details of the children's famlies (ie Harman's grandkids)

Cheers
Cherilyn

Tracey's reply via PM

Hi Cherilyn,
Where did you get your information from?
Maybe you could help me find out which ship Herman
Kramer came out to Aus.
I was told he jumped ship & I cant find which one.
There is another Herman Kramer in South Australian Records,
but it is not him.
The data you have so far is right & some things I did't have before.
Regards
Tracey

The South Australian Advertiser, Friday 28 September 1888
MARRIAGES.
KRAMER—HULKE.—On the 24th September, at the Wesleyan Church, Templeton by the Rev. W. H Fanton, Harmen, eldest son of Mr. H. Kramer, Whitwarta, to Muriel, eldest daughter of the late Mr. William Hulke, N.Z.

The Advertiser, Thursday 13 March 1890
ENGLISH —KRAMER - On the 4th March, at Whitwarta, by the Rev. W, H. Hanton, Alfred English, to Henrietta Kramer, eldest daughter of Mrs. H. Kramer, Whitwarta.

The Advertiser, Saturday 16 September 1916
KRAMER.-In loving; memory of my dear mother, Elizabeth Mary Kramer, who died September 16, 1907, at Nhill, Victoria.
A faithful mother, true and kind.
No friend on earth like her we'll find.
One year has passed, but none can tell
The loss of a mother we loved so well,
-Inserted by her loving daughter and son in law, Ann, and George Bester, Whitwarta.


Mary died in 1914 as Mary Elizabeth Matthews KRAMER, daughter of Matthew MATTHEWS and Sarah Ann RUS, aged 76 (reg 11164).

Marriage in SA as Henry - this certificate may reveal his father's name:

1865
60/421
KRAMER Henry
MATTHEWS Mary Elizabeth
Barossa

Children of Harmen & [Mary] Elizabeth:

1865
34/652
KRAMER Henrietta
[father] Henry KRAMER
[mother] Elizabeth MATTHEWS
Port Gawler

1868
63/237
KRAMER Harmen
Harmen KRAMER
Elizabeth MATTHEWS
Port Gawler

1872
115/445
KRAMER Henry
Harmin KRAMER
Elizabeth MATTHEWS
Barossa
[he died in 1874]

1874
134/390
KRAMER Elizabeth Jane
Harman KRAMER
Mary Elizabeth MATTHEWS
Adelaide

1875
159/301
KRAMER Elizabeth Berta
Harmen KRAMER
Elizabeth MATTHEWS
Gilbert

1879
232/325
KREMER Garrett Henry Allen
Harman KREMER
Mary Elizabeth MATHEWS
Gilbert

1882
277/293
KRAMER Emma Lilly
Hermen KRAMER
Mary Elizabeth MATHEWS
Gilbert

1884
339/478
KRAMER Maude Rosina Mary
Herman KRAMER
Mary Elizabeth MATTHEWS
Gilbert


Their marriages in SA & Vic

1883
135/886
BESTER George
KRAMER Anna [see in memoriam notice for mother, below]
Gilbert

1888
156/965
KRAMER Harmen
HULKE Muriel
Gilbert

2nd marriage for Harmen jnr (b. SA) in 1899 in Victoria to Eve REDFORD (reg 6389).

1890
162/764
ENGLISH Alfred
KRAMER Henrietta
Gilbert

Mary [Eliz Jane] KRAMER (b. SA) married in Victoria Geo Wm BREW 1901 (reg 7921)

Edwin KRAMER (b. SA) married in Victoria to Miriam LOVETT in 1892 (reg 278); she died in 1895 in Nhill, aged 27

Mandy [Maude or Maudie] Rosena Mary (b. SA) married in Victoria to RichardHarold OLDFIELD in 1911 (reg 6473)

Bertha Elizabeth married in Victoria to Thos Alfred FORT in 1896 (reg 454)

Deaths of chn:
Harmen jnr died in Nhill in 1950 aged 81 (reg 17276).
Garet Hy Allen KRAMER died in Nhill in 1935 aged 56 (reg 16777).
Henrietta died as ENGLISH in Horsham in 1941 aged 76 (reg 19550).
Bertha Elizabeth died as FORT in Horsham in 1944 aged 68 (reg 16903).
Elizabeth Jane died as BREW in Nhill in 1944 aged 70 (reg 19004).
Maudie Rosena M died as OLDFIELD in Nhill in 1971 aged 85 (reg 7073).

Yes jax, death was in Victoria, Australia in a small town called Nhill.

His death reg (as Harmen KRAMER) does not give parents names; he was 76.

There was a brief obit in a South Australian newspaper (NLA Trove):

The Register, Wednesday 18 October 1916
NHILL, October 16.— On Sunday the death occurred from pneumonia of Mr. Herman Kramer, aged 76 years, an old resident of Mount Elgin. The deceased was born in Holland, and emigrated to South Australia .when a young man; and eventually migrated to the West Wimmera with his wife and family. The late Mr. Kramer was well known and highly respected throughout the district.


There is a tree online that has his birth as Brock, Materlavi, Holland on 4 Apr 1841 - no trace of any such location

As this was posted at 4 am there is a good chance it is an Australian or Canadian search as there were no Herman/Herman Kramer deaths in 1916 apart from a baby

NOTICE is hereby given that the Partnership
heretofore subsisting between us, the undersigned,
George Frederick Kramer, Albert Edward
Kramer, Gottlieb Kramer and Herman Kramer,
carrying on business as Pork Butchers, at No. 123,
Spital Hill, No. 63, Spital Street, and No. 7,
Page Hall Road, all in the city of Sheffield, under
the style or firm of JOHN KRAMER & SONS,
has been dissolved by mutual consent as from the
31st day of March, 1935. All debts due to and
owing by the said late firm will be received and
paid respectively by George Frederick Kramer,
who will continue to carry on the said business
under the style or firm of John Kramer & Sous.—
Dated the 2nd day of August, 1935.
G. F. KRAMER,
A? E. KRAMER.
GOTTLIEB KRAMER.
(076) H. KRAMER.

PDF] THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 AUGUST 529,1 1935
Adobe PDF
signed, George Frederick Kramer, Albert Edward Kramer, Gottlieb Kramer and Herman Kramer, ... Hall Road, all in the city of Sheffield, under the style or firm of JOHN KRAMER ...
www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/34190/?pages/5291/page.pdf

found this while searching on the www

Jim Kramer and the butchers shop - My grandfather was Herman Kramer and Jim was his brother Fred's son. Jim's actual name was Gottleib Kramer. I have been researching the family history over a number of years; the shops were at 123 Spital Hill; 63 Spital Street & 7 Page Hall Road.
My great-grandfather was John (Johann) Kramer, who came to Sheffield from Ebersbach Württemberg in around 1869. I have been using Google Earth to look for the old shops - all seems pretty run down though I think 7 Page Hall Road may still be recognisable! My grandfather moved to Plymouth before WW2 and had a shop with a brother I think, then worked as a butcher in a House of Frazer store Dingles of Plymouth.

Page Hall Shops - Page 13 - Sheffield Forum
My great-grandfather was John (Johann) Kramer, who came to Sheffield from Ebersbach ... aboout Jim Kramer and the butchers shop - My grandfather was Herman Kramer ...
www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/?showthread.php?t=324852&page=13 - Cached

so, likely to be from Germany

Name: Annie Kramer
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
Gender: Female
Age: 42
Relationship to Head of Household: Wife
Birthplace: Germany British Subject
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Sheffield
Sub-District: Brightside
Ecclesiastical Parish: Wicker Trinity
Parish: Brightside Bierlow
County: Yorkshire (West Riding)

shedloads of Kramers in Sheffield


Name: Hannah Kramer
Age (Original): 39
Gender: Female
Birth Year: 1842
Birthplace: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Relationship to Head of Household: Wife
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Milliner
Address: 47 Rockingham St
Event Place: Sheffield, Yorkshire (West Riding), England
Disability:
Record Type: Household
GS Film number: 1342121
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 4641 / 124
Page Number: 14
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head Frederick Kramer M 40 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Wife Hannah Kramer F 39 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Daughter Blanche Emily Kramer F 14 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Daughter Annie Elizabeth Kramer F 12 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Daughter Florence Louisa Kramer F 10 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Daughter Lily Fredore Kramer F 8 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Son Frederick William Kramer M 5 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Daughter Clara Kramer F 1 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

just saying "foreign"

Charles Kramer
England and Wales Census, 1841
birth: 1821 Foreign
census: 1841 Sheffield, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

Christian Kramer
England and Wales Census, 1841
birth: 1806 Foreign
census: 1841 Sheffield, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

??????????

Name: Harman Kramer
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 31 Mar 1901
Gender:
Age: 15
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Birthplace: Sheffield, Yorkshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Sheffield
Sub-District: West Brightside
Ecclesiastical Parish: Wicker Holy Trinity
Civil Parish: Brightside Bierlow
District/Parish/County: Yorkshire (West Riding)

connected?

Name: Herman Kramer
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
Gender: Male
Age: 5
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Birthplace: Sheffield, Yorkshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Sheffield
Sub-District: Brightside
Ecclesiastical Parish: Wicker Trinity
Parish: Brightside Bierlow
County: Yorkshire (West Riding)

Have send a friendly pm to advise of replies. :-)

Cannot find him in 1911 Census
Were did the birth and death date come from

Only one who died in 1916

Deaths Sep 1916 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kramer Herman 0 Sheffield 9c 541


So it does not look like he was from the UK then?