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Pleased to say we have now made some progress on Charles and Frances.

The birth certificate for daughter Lily in 1909 names her as Lily Esther Martin. Esther is a name that is repeated in every generation of our branch of the Martins.

The father is Charles John Martin and the mother is named as Frances Rosetta Day but so far we still cant find any marriage of them.

At the time of the birth they were living at 14 Nursery Cottages, Lea Bridge Road, Leyton

Thanks GB.

I've already looked the Christening records with no joy but I'll have a go at Marriages 1538-1940 ..........though that might not help if they didn't get married!

Leyton and Walthamstow were not classed as London

You could look at England Marriages and England Christenings - both on Ancestry - but not all areas are covered


England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906

England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1940

Looking through the records again I see that Frances Gertude and Charles (the horse man) had a son named Henry who was baptised 1906 so I'm now certain they are not the couple living at Walthamstow in 1911.

As has been said, there seems to be no other marriage for a Charles and Frances around 1904 as indicated by the census.

I've found probable births for all the children - all registered at West Ham if they are the ones.

Cant find anything on the London Marriages, Banns, Births and Baptisms - normally a good source but would Leyton and Walthamstow be outside that area?

Jude, Thanks,

I think maybe a birth cert for one of Frances's children looks to be the next step.

It is a possibility that she and Charles were not married but that would be unusual for the Martins. My brother has most of the Martin births (to William and Emma) sewn up. He has the birth cert of Esther born at Felton Street on 26th June 1895.

Think I'll have a lie down and come back to this later with a fresh mind!

Stephen

Francis William's marriage to Ellen Reed is on Ancestry. Sister Emma (Ballinger) was a witness.

I have found baptisms for 7 of the children - Emma and Charles baptised on same day - address 3 Bristow Street, then William and George on same day 13 Felton Street

and then John Walter and Alfred all living Felton Street.

Have not found Henry or Esther or the first born Frank/James.

1881 census shows Emma Reader was born in Sawncombe Kent and GRO for her is Dartford. So I am guessing that this is Frank's birth

Births Dec 1875 (>99%)
Martin Annie Dartford 2a 402 Scan available - click to view
Martin Francis William Dartford 2a 397 Scan available - click to view
Martin Gertrude Alice Dartford 2a 361 Scan available - click to view
Martin Henry Dartford 2a 396 Scan available - click to view

There is no entry for James which rules out him being a twin.

There is however this entry

Births Mar 1875 (>99%)
MARTIN James Dartford 2a 397 Scan available - click to view

So if this is their son, where was he in 1881 and where was Frank in 1891?
Only way of telling if he is their son would be to buy this certificate.

All I can think about Frances is that she and Charles were not married - you could buy one of the children's birth certificates to get the maiden name of the mother

And the Charles Martin from Bermondsey is definitely the one in the military records - son of James and Lucretia. I find it strange there are no children mentioned on the records.

Jude

OK let’s try and fathom this out logically:

Charles and George are brothers born to William and Emma.
Charles born in 1879 and George in 1883 – both in Hoxton according to the 1901 census. Charles is a labourer and George is a timber carrier.

In the 1911 census, at Longfellow Road, Walthamstow, we have Charles born 1879 in Hoxton with his brother born 1883 in Hoxton (actually, it looks like they have transposed the entries for George and Charles junior with George born in Walthamstow and young Charlie in Hoxton. As all the other kids were born in Essex I think that is a mistake by the enumerator.
Charles senior is a stoker at the waterworks and George is a carter.

So lets suppose we have both Charles and George, being the right ages, and both born in Hoxton as a possibility as being the same brothers belonging to William and Emma.

Now we come to the marriage to Frances Gertrude Sandford. Jude points out that in the 1903 marriage Charles has a father named James. But that Charles does not have a brother named George! Glitter Baby confirms Jude’s findings.

I now have a copy of the marriage certificate for Charles Martin and Frances Gertrude Sandford. The Charles Martin she married was born in Bermondsey in 1878 and employed as a horse keeper. His father is shown as James Martin (deceased). Therefore, I feel pretty certain he is not the Charles Martin living at Walthamstow in 1911.

I short, I think I have the correct Charles and George – but the wrong Frances. The one at Walthamstow was born in at Waterloo in 1882. Frances G Sandford was two years older.

I think my next step is to try and find another Frances and to look at the births of her children.

Jude – regarding the “twins” Frank and James:

Frank is shown aged 5 in the 1881 census and James is 15 in 1891 – both Frank and James were born Swanscombe Kent where mother Emma came from.

Frank Martin was married to Ellen Reed in 1899 in Islington – father William Martin – Brass finisher! Still trying to work out what happened to James!

You said it Jude!

I don't think they are twins...I think Frank 1881 is James W in 1891

Births Mar 1876 (>99%)
MARTIN Francis Tunbridge 2a 610

What a glorious mess :-)

GB,

We actually have 11 children in the Martin Family:

Francis William 1876-1954
James W 1876
Emma 1877
Charles John 1879
William George 1881-1962
George 1883
Walter 1886
Henry 1888
Alfred 1890-1891
John 1893
Esther 1895-1974

Alfred died aged one but there is some confusion over Francis and James who may have been twins. Frank appears on the 1881 census but not James, and James is there in 1891 but not Frank!!

We have Francis William as died 1954

Looking back at my notes,

The Ballinger marriage was over quite quickly as Emma was soon living at home with the family and Ernest Ballanger appears to have died in 1936.

Esther was married (at least) twice. Once to John Cray (who died in WW1) and then Arthur White.

One of the trees on Ancestry (Marden/Martin) is compiled by my brother. He and I swap findings - but dont always agree!

Name: Esther Martin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Age: 22
Spouse Name: John Cray
Spouse Age: 35
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Jun 1914
Parish: Bounds Green
Borough: Haringey
Father Name: William Martin
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Cray
Register Type: Parish Register


But possible death as Esther White

??
Marriages Jun 1918 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cray Esther White Edmonton 3a 1094
Hayden Florence E O'Leary Edmonton 3a 1094
O' Leary Timothy Hayden Edmonton 3a 1094
White Arthur J Cray Edmonton 3a 1094

1911 census for William and Emma Martin says 10 children born and 9 still alive

Have you accounted for all the children to know which one had died by 1911


1911 just for info

Name: William Martin
Age in 1911: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: St Luke, London, England
Civil Parish: Tottenham
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address: 15 Seaford Road, Tottenham
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Brass Finisher
Registration District: Edmonton
Registration District Number: 132
Sub-registration District: West Tottenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household Schedule Number: 144
Piece: 7290
Household Members: Name Age
William Martin 63
Emm Martin 59
Walter Martin 25
John Martin 18
Esther Martin 15

The marriage for Esther is on Ancestry

GB,

Yes I do have access to Ancestry and, so far, the only marriage match to come up was that of Charles and Frances at St Olave.

The Ballinger marriage to Emma seems to have been very short lived.

Still looking for others.

Do you have access to Ancestry to look at the London marriages

The marriage for sister Emma to Ballinger is on there but neither brothers were witnesses.

Might be worth looking for marriages for the other siblings just to see who the witnesses were

I really don't know! It is quite confusing.

There are trees on Ancestry with equally mixed up assumptions so they are not a lot of help either!

I can't find a death for Charles that helps either

Off down the pub now to read the papers :-)

Oh dear! Jude,

Does that mean we are back at square one with the infamous Martin brothers at Walthamstow? I've also had a contact from a descendent of the Martin family who says her family lived with John in Walthamstow - but thinks his wife may have been Maud!!

and to confuse it even more...Bermondsey Charles did not have a brother George as far as I can tell!

and thanks for the above :-)

Jude (and all)

Please dont misunderstand - I'm certainly not disagreeing with what you and others are offering. I'm merely trying to gauge it against what I already have. In the case of Longfellow Road its been shown that I have indeed got the wrong info and I'm grateful for having that pointed out.

I'm quite new at this geneology thing but I am doing my very best and its not that I'm not doing any researches myself - as was inference a message above.

So far I've spent quite a lot time and money (as we all do) and I'm certainly not sitting back and letting others do the work for me. Again, I really do appreciate the help that others are offering - if it comes across otherwise then i can only apologise!

Regards, Stephen

It's quite a mystery..to all extents and purposes the brothers in 1911 are the correct brothers (with correct occupation) but both the marriage and the WW! pension record shows that the Charles married to Frances was the son of James and Lucretia - which fits with that 1881 census I posted.

But I can't find another marriage of a Charles to a Frances so the 1911 Charles cannot be your Charles UNLESS the Frances he is "married" to wasn't actually married to him?