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I have had no luck in finding my 2x great grandfather, Thomas Dean, born in Hull ,on 14th December, 1840, in the census records: 1861, 1871, 1891 and 1901. His parents were John and Eliza Dean. I have found Thomas in 1841 and 1851. In 1841, he was Thomas Dean, aged 4 month, living in Great Passage Street, Hull ( the address on his birth certificate) and in 1851, he was recorded as John Thomas Dean, aged 10, with his parents, John and Eliza and 3 younger sisters, living in Fawcett Street, Hull. I have no idea why he was listed as John Thomas, in 1851, since his name was just Thomas on his birth certificate and in 1841. His father, John, was apparently named John Thomas, but rarely used his middle name. It could, of course, have been just an error in recording.

Thomas was recorded as Thomas Dean on his son, John's marriage certificate in 1887, where he is listed as a labourer. His death certificate records him as Thomas Dean, a firewood dealer, aged 62 and no relative was recorded on the death certificate. The only record I have found for Thomas Dean ,as an adult , is the 1881 census, where he is recorded as Thomas Dean, labourer, single, born in 1841, Hull and living with John and Betsy Larder as a lodger in Mill Street, Hull.

I have tried wild card searches and just using his first name of Thomas and birth dates and place, but nothing has turned up. I use Findmypast, Ancestry and Genes Reunited and wondered if anyone has access to any other site, which might have the records I am looking for. If anyone has any other suggestions about how to find Thomas, I would be very grateful. Thank you.

Gillian.

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Since he is your ancestor and had children he presumably married so are you sure the 1881 census is the right man?
What was his wife's name and when did they marry, please?

Also what year was his son born? He must have been married very young to have a son of marriageable age by 1887.

1841 (Reference)
DEAN, John M 30 1811 Yorkshire (Mariner)
DEAN, Eliza F 25 1816 Yorkshire
DEAN, Thomas M 0 (4 months) 1841 Yorkshire
Piece: 1231
Book/Folio: 4/14
Page: 20
Registration District: Kingston upon Hull
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Municipal Borough: Kingston upon Hull
Address: Passage Street, Great, Holy Trinity, Kingston Upon Hull
County: Yorkshire

1851 (Reference)
DEAN, John Head Married M 39 1812 Extra Tide Waiter Customs
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, Eliza Wife Married F 39 1812
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, Ann Eliza Daughter Unmarried F 6 1845 Scholar
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, John Thos Son M 10 1841 Scholar
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, Harriet Helen Daughter F 4 1847
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, Mary Daughter F 1 1850
Hull, Yorkshire
Piece: 2363
Folio: 576
Page: 10
Registration District: Hull
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Municipal Borough: Kingston upon Hull
Address: 1, Fawcett Street, Holy Trinity, Kingston Upon Hull
County: Yorkshire (East riding)

1861 (Reference)
DEAN, John Head Married M 49 1812 Officer In Hm Customer
Kingston upon Hull
DEAN, Eliza Wife Married F 47 1814 Officers Wife
Kingston upon Hull
DEAN, Ann E Daughter Unmarried F 10 1851 Spinster Orch Of Place
Kingston upon Hull
DEAN, Rosina Daughter Unmarried F 7 1854 Scholar
Kingston upon Hull
DEAN, Joseph Rt Son Unmarried M 5 1856 Scholar
Kingston upon Hull
Piece: 3594
Folio: 54
Page: 20
Registration District: Hull
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Municipal Borough: Kingston upon Hull
Address: 13, Regents Court, Holy Trinity, Kingston Upon Hull
County: Yorkshire (East riding)

1871
DEAN, Eliza Head F 59 1812 Yorkshire (Widow)
DEAN, Joseph R Son M 15 1856 Yorkshire
DEAN, Rosinna Daughter F 17 1854 Yorkshire
Piece: 4792
Folio: 137
Page: 8
Registration District: Hull
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Municipal Borough: Kingston upon Hull
Address: Union Street, Lower Regent Court, Holy Trinity, Kingston Upon Hull
County: Yorkshire


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=29076.0

(query for 1841 on above, his Father John Death, 1868)

Chris :)

To BeverleyWW:- You asked for Thomas's wife's name, but he didn't apparently marry anyone. I haven't found any marriage record for him and nor have I found a birth record for his son, John, who was, according to the census, marriage and death certificates, born in 1866/7. This would make Thomas about 26 when son John was born. I have a birth certificate for a John Dean born in 1869...the only one found and it was the wrong one, with the wrong father and this John died in infancy anyway. Perhaps the birth was not registered especially if John's mother was an unmarried mother.

Thank you for taking the time to have a look for me. I am overseas, so cannot look at local records offices and cemetaries for clues.

To Chris Ho,

The records you supplied were for Thomas's family and his father, John Dean died in 1868, the date you gave. I have looked around the neighbourhood in 1861 and 1871, where Eliza Dean ( Thomas's mother) lived to see if Thomas was living close by, but nothing turned up. Thank you for looking up details for me. It is tough one, unfortunately, but something might turn up eventually..
Thank you to both of you for taking the time to help.

Gillian.

Perhaps we should look at the son John and try to work backwards - if, as you say, you do not have this John's birth cert, how do you know that Thomas (Thomas John) was his father??

Can you give us some details on John and post any census's etc. which you have on him please.

I presume that you have worked back from the present day and proved everything back to this particular John c1866/7?

Thanks,

Dea x

Is this John Jnr.??

1891 census transcription details for: 1, Sewer Lane, Holy Trinity And St Mary, Kingston Upon Hull
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 3934
Folio: 38
Page: 3
Reg. District: Hull
Sub District: Humber
Parish: Holy Trinity and St Mary
Enum. District: 3
Ecclesiastical District: Holy Trinity
City/Municipal Borough: Kingston upon Hull
Address: 1, Sewer Lane, Holy Trinity And St Mary, Kingston Upon Hull
County: Yorkshire (East Riding)
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
DEAN, John Head Married M 24 1867 Dock Side Labourer
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, Jane A Wife Married F 21 1870
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, Thomas H Son M 3 1888
Hull, Yorkshire
DEAN, Mary A Daughter F 1 1890
Hull, Yorkshire


Marriages Dec 1887
DEAN John Hull 9d 436
Penrose Jane Hull 9d 436

Dea x

Could you please give us all the info from John's marriage cert.

Names, occupations, fathers, addresses and witnesses etc.

Thanks,

Dea x

I can't see anything that suggests that the Father of your John is the Thomas you mention.

Also consider that his Father might not have been Thomas and he lied on the marriage cert.

I agree Prickles.

I have a feeling that his father may well have been Thomas but I have quite a different one in mind.....

I won't post the details until we have some more info from Gillian otherwise it will only confuse.

Just about to go out but will look back here when I return.

Dea Xxx

John Dean, born Hull, about 1867.
Searching for the name of John Dean's mother. John Dean was born in Hull, about 1867 and was the son of Thomas Dean ( also of Hull). On John's marriage certificate, his father was named Thomas, a labourer. I have been unable to find John Dean in the 1871 or 1881 censuses when he would have been living with his parents and would have been about 4 years of age, and 14 years of age, respectively. According to information in the 1891 census, John was born about 1866/7. I haven't found his birth record yet, and I am not aware of any siblings. John Dean married Jane Ann Penrose in 1887, in Hull. I hope that someone will be able to tell me who John's mother was as I haven't been able to find a record of Thomas Dean marrying anyone. Thomas Dean was born about 1841, so a marriage would have probably taken place somewhere between about 1863 and 1867, unless,of course, John's parents didn't marry. Thanks.

(above from google, ties in with 1891 posted by Dea)

Chris :)

????


..1861 England Census
about Thomas Dean Name: Thomas Dean
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: York E R, Southcoates

Civil Parish: Southcoates
Town: Kingston upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration District: Sculcoates
Sub-registration District: Drypool
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 72
Piece: 3580
Folio: 149
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
John Wood 46
Elisabeth Wood 39
Hannah S Wood 11
John Wood 9
Thomas W Wood 5
Elisabeth E Wood 3
Thomas Dean 18
Sarah Draper 18

For ref.

father: Thomas Dean
spouse: Jane Penrose
other: Henry Penrose
Name John Dean
Birth Date 1867
Birthplace
Age 20
Spouse's Name Jane Penrose
Spouse's Birth Date 1867
Spouse's Birthplace
Spouse's Age 20
Event Date 30 Oct 1887
Event Place Hull, York, England
Father's Name Thomas Dean
Mother's Name
Spouse's Father's Name Henry Penrose
Spouse's Mother's Name
Race
Marital Status Single
Previous Wife's Name
Spouse's Race
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M01423-3
System Origin England-EASy
GS Film number 1657087
Reference ID 1657087, P. 162

Thank you to all the following who have contributed details and ideas about Thomas Dean.
To Dea,
Yes, everything relating to John Dean ( 1866/7) is correct and has been proved . and the 1891 census transcript you provided is the correct one. You asked for details of John and Jane's marriage certificate:
30th October, 1887, John Dean, 20, labourer of Roper Street, Hull. father, Thomas Dean, labourer.
Jane Penrose, 20, of Waterworks Street, Hull, father, Henry Penrose, costermonger.
Witnesses: William Cook and Ada Atkinson.
Prickly Holly : You mention that the Thomas I think is John's father might not be the right one and perhaps John didn't tell the truth about his father's name. It is possible, but there were only 3 Thomas Deans born in Hull from 1840 to 1843 and Thomas Darling. Dean, b. 1840 moved to Headingly, Leeds and married and had a family, so unlikely to be him. The Thomas born in 1843 in East Sculcoates, parents, Joseph and Patience Dean, is probably the one who was found in 1861 working as a servant for the Woods family. An Uncle once told me that the Deans were seafarers and whalers and the Thomas born to John and Eliza Dean in December, 1840....the birth record has it dated Jan quarter, 1841, but is the one relating to Thomas born in Dec. 1840, as it was the reference I supplied when certificate was sent for.........seemed the right one because John Dean, mariner, customs officer , was a whaler at one time, according to some descendants of his whom I contacted some time ago.
These descendants referred to above, also had an interesting theory that the young John Dean ( son of Thomas) was the " nurse child" in the home of Matilda Chilvers,b.1850, Lincolnshire, in 1871, in Hull. This means a foster child and his age was given as 3, from memory and born in Hull. It also states that " father deserted" and by 1881, Thomas had been adopted by the Chilvers. They were living , i 1871, in the vicinity of Eliza Dean, widowed, by now, and mother of Thomas Dean, 1840. After 1881, there is no sign of ThomasDean/ Chilvers in the census records and if he was John Dean, then that would explain why he was not found after 1881,because John was married before the next census in 1891 . Also, there is no birth record for a Thomas Dean about 1868 in Hull, only a Thomas Martin Dean, born in 1866, who died in 1869.

Dea: You say that you have a different Thomas in mind for John's father? If you think that you have enough details now, would you mind giving the information you have, please? I am curious to know.
Chris Ho....the Google search you posted about John Dean was mine to " curious fox" some time ago, but no one replied to that query.
Alviegal: Thanks for the marriage details of John and Jane.

Thanks to everyone mentioned above...I think that it is a tough one to solve, but I appreciate your input and thanks for taking the time to help .

Gillian.

1871 (Reference)
CHILVERS, Matilda Wife F 21 1850 Lincolnshire (Sailors Wife)
MORLEY, Sarah Mother F 67 1804 Lincolnshire
THOMLINSON, Clara Boarder F 21 1850 Yorkshire
DEAN, Thomas Boarder M 3 1868 Yorkshire
Piece: 4791
Folio: 177
Page: 15
Registration District: Hull
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Municipal Borough: Kingston upon Hull
Address: Cottage Row, Holy Trinity, Kingston Upon Hull
County: Yorkshire

Chris :)

Marriages Mar 1868 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Chilvers Robert William Hull 9d 272
Morley Matilda Marana Hull 9d 272

Deaths Mar 1925 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
Chilvers Matilda M 76 Hull 9d 372


1911
STEAD, George Head Married M 28 1883 Fish Dock Labourer Yorkshire Hull
STEAD, Matilda Marana Wife Married8 years F 24 1887 Yorkshire Hull
STEAD, Eva Matilda Daughter F 4 1907 Yorkshire Hull
STEAD, Doris Daughter F 2 1909 Yorkshire Hull
CHIRLESS, Matilda Marana Mother In Law Widow F 62 1849 Monthly Nurse Linclonshire Boston
CHIRLESS, Elisabeth May Niece Single F 15 1896 General Servant Domestic Yorkshire Hull
RG number: RG14
Piece: 28797
Reference: RG14PN28797 RG78PN1652 RD522 SD2 ED28 SN218
Registration District: Hull
Sub District: Myton
Enumeration District: 28
Parish: Holy Trinity and St Mary
Address: 8 Belgrave Terrace Eton St Hull
County: Yorkshire (East riding)

(not much help!, have added above)

Chris Ho,

Thank you for providing the above census records for Matilda Chilvers in 1871 and 1911. The 1871 record was the one referred to in my last message, where a " nurse child", Thomas Dean was living. The 1911 record, I haven't seen before, but it is definitely for Matilda, though the surname is mis spelt. I had tried to connect with a member of the Chilvers family who lived in Canada, but she couldn't enlighten me about Thomas ( who was listed in her tree as Thomas Chilvers). I have looked for a Thomas Chilvers in the 1891 census, but he doesn't show up there and I still think perhaps he is really John Dean, the son of the elusive Thomas Dean!.
Thanks again for your help.

Giliian.

Sorry Gillian,

The one I had in mind for Thomas (father of John), I believe I have now proved to be incorrect as I have managed to follow that John through most census and he does not appear to be 'your' John.

I am still working on it....................

Dea Xxx

Hi Dea,

Thanks for looking at the alternativeThomas, who now appears not to be correct. However, your help is appreciated.


Gillian.

What are the details from Thomas's death cert please?

Is there an address on there?

Dea x

Hi, Dea: The details on Thomas's death certificate are as follows:

Date of death: 6th September, 1902, at 151 Wincolmlee, Hull. Thomas Dean, aged 62, firewood dealer. Cause of death, Fatty heart, Syncope. Certificate received from Thomas C. Jackson, deputy coroner for Hull. Inquest held on 8th September, 1902. Death registered on 10th September, 1902, signed by Registrar, John Clapham. Wincolmlee is in East Sculcoates. John Dean's oldest son, Thomas Henry Dean, born in 1888, was .living in that district in 1911.

As you can see, there is no relative's name on the certificate, acting as an informant. Thomas probably died alone at home and that'sprobably why there was an inquest.

Gillian.


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