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Them SCOTTISH Hervie's this time!

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


David Report 10 Dec 2017 08:03

Hello. :)

I’m a Hervey descendant. I’m hoping you can help. My great-grandmother was Rosa Daisy Hervey, born in Mauritius in 1886. She married Edouard Tristan Blandin de Chalain. Until recently, we’d drawn a total blank regarding Rosa Daisy’s parents. We knew there were Scottish ties, but not much else.

I established her mother was Lucy Rosa Shaw, and her father a Robert Hervey. They married in Mauritius in 1886. They had another child, “Sweet Hamilton”, in 1889.

Mauritius is a smallish island. Circle of Genealogy Mauritius records show there weren’t many Herveys there in the 1800s. The British only started arriving in numbers once Mauritius became a colonial possession in 1810. A lot worked for the British Navy. Some stayed temporarily.

I’m trying to establish exactly who this Robert Hervey and his forefathers were. There must have been at least two Robert Herveys in Mauritius, because I can see one died there in 1883, two years before the other Robert Hervey, the “manager of a Scottish legacy”, married Lucy Rosa Shaw, my GG-grandmother. A relative thought our Robert was also the Governor-General, but I can’t find any record of this.

Most of you know the Herveys, Kibble Herveys and Marshalls had ties to Mauritius. Several were married or born there, so I’m pretty certain our Robert is tied to this Hervey/Hervie clan. It’s unlikely to be Robert Kibble Hervey, born in 1829, based on the records and your comments. His wives are down as Mary Clayton and Dorothy Maud. Then again, Nicola was saying he married his 19-year-old Ward of Court when he was 70, so I suppose anything is possible!

It’s also unlikely to have been his father Robert, son of James Hervie (too old). To me, the most likely candidate is Frederick ROBERT James Hervey, born in 1845, the son of Thomas Kibble Hervey and Eleanora Louisa Kibble Hervey. Any other ideas?

I have been searching for definitive proof for days and days. The records are often scant, incomplete or somewhat unreliable. I’m pretty certain he must be tied to these Herveys because they’re the only ones from Britain that I’ve come across that settled or stayed in Mauritius in the 1800s.

At least three were born there (Charles Frederick Hervey, 1815; Christina/Christiana Hervey, circa 1833, down as “Isle of France”, as it was known before British occupation); or close by (James Hervey, 1813, either in nearby Reunion/Isle of Bourbon or Mauritius itself, husband of Elizabeth Kibble Hervey.

(By the way, a tree on MyHeritage indicates he was the son of a JACQUES Hervey, born on 10 February 1783, in Glasgow, the son of James and Jean Hervie. Jacques Hervey married Delphine Marie Reynaud de Belleville, of French origin, in Réunion in 1811. I’m wondering if the Charles F. Hervey mentioned above, born in 1815, two years later than James was a sibling and if there were any others.

They records I have also indicate that Mary Hervey, daughter of James Hervie, married George Marshall there, and that the sons were in attendance.

We’re a family of writers, journalists and poets, so if we were related to the likes of Thomas Kibble Hervey, it’d not be altogether surprising.

To try to make sense of everything you and others said, I inserted all available info our family tree. I guessed in some instances, as I simply can’t find some info in the hope MyHeritage will then throw up further clues/confirmation in the form of Smart and Record Matches, so it’s likely not all of it is 100% correct. In cases like that, I’ve inserted **check next to the names.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

Circle of Genealogy Mauritius Hervey search results:

• hervey is the surname of the person interested
• Births, Deaths, Marriages, Various Types

15 records found
Type Dated Interested (e) Town / Parish
1. Wedding 1824 MARSHALL George x HERVEY Mary
COE Saint James Cathedral
2. Death 1853 HERVEY Andrew
COE Saint James Cathedral
3. Wedding 1857 Henry COOPER x HERVEY Mary Christina
COE Saint James Cathedral
4. Wedding 1857 Henry COOPER x HERVEY Mary Christina
COE Saint James Cathedral
5. Wedding 1857 Henry COOPER x HERVEY Mary Christina
COE Saint James Cathedral
6. Death 1860 HERVEY Marie Christina
7. Death 1866 HERVEY James
8. Death 1872 HERVEY Mrs Leonide
9. Wedding 1873 HERVEY Robert x RENAUD Louise Alphonsine Caroline
TD_Port Louis
10. Death 1875 HERVEY Joseph
COE Saint James Cathedral
11. Death 1883 HERVEY Robert
12. Wedding 1885 Robert HERVEY x SHAW Lucy Rosa
TD_Port Louis
13. Birth 1886 HERVEY Rosa Daisy
COE Saint James Cathedral
14. Birth 1889 HERVEY Sweet Hamilton
COE Saint James Cathedral
15. Death 1895 HERVEY Marie Indiana Victoria Carolin


mgnv Report 29 Aug 2017 02:20

Re Wm 1775 - yes, you're right - I've editted my original post to reflect this - sorry


Scriptor Report 28 Aug 2017 09:25

Thanks for those references. I looked at them all and the one for William actually states 1773, not 1775, which makes more sense.

If Isabel was "one of 17 children" then there must have been many more later. Margaret, the "youngest daughter" married in 1834 and daughter Sarah, buried here in Kent, must have been born around 1785, but we haven't found a record of her birth yet.

Thomas appears to have inherited his father's estate in 1819, so apparently something happened to his elder brother Robert previously.


mgnv Report 22 Aug 2017 20:56

Isabel 1767
Robert 1770
Thomas 1772
William 1773 [Editted version]
James 1775
John 1776
James 1777

Indexing Project (Batch) Number C11962-8


Scriptor Report 22 Aug 2017 14:27

For some years I have been doing research into an enigmatic 19th century eccentric recluse, Thomas Kibble, a bachelor who lived alone in an enormous mansion on his estate Green Trees in Hadlow, Kent. I discovered that his father, from whom he inherited the estate, was also named Thomas Kibble and a London merchant, but clues to his origin were non-existent and until now I assumed from the best information found by my genealogical colleague that he was born in Brettenham in Essex.

Only today have I confirmed that my Thomas Kibble senior was the son of Thomas Kibble and Sarah Martin of Paisley, and born on the 24th February 1772. I only discovered this connection recently through a newspaper report of the marriage of his sister, the youngest daughter Margaret to Captain George Stirling, second son of Sir John Stirling of Glorat, Bart. on the 22nd December 1834. The deposition concerning the estate of the deceased Thomas Kibble of Paisley made by his son James positively confirms my Thomas's identity as it specifically mentions Green Trees.

The graveyard at St. Mary's, Hadlow, Kent contains the tomb of my Thomas Kibble senior, who died in 1838 at age 67, his sister Sarah, who died in 1828 at age 43, and his unmarried son Thomas, who died in 1895 at age 78. His daughter Frances Sarah Kibble, La Baronne d'Este died in Paris on the 29th September 1890 at age 78.

Apart from the Kent family dying out, in 1879 the mansion at Green Trees was destroyed by fire. When son Thomas died his substantial 600 acre estate was sold and the money divided between his sister's children, the Barons d'Este in France, so all trace of the family in Kent vanished and it has been a long task reconstructing their history.

I will no doubt now have questions to ask about the Paisley Kibbles, but in the meantime I should mention that I am the effective local coordinator of information about this defunct Kent branch of the family if anyone wants to know more about them. I am doing this as a local history project though, not personal genealogical research. Any relatives are certainly welcome to share in my findings, which I find fascinating.

By the way, in my research I found strong connections but not family ties between the Kent Kibbles and people in Adelaide, Australia. I have in fact been in contact with their descendants living there, but was not aware of connections with any Australian Kibbles. However, as these connections date from around 1840 onwards then there may be a connection with James's sons, who were the cousins of my wealthy recluse.

I found in the South Australian Register of 1847 a list of letters detained at the Sydney post office as a result of incorrect postage and one was addressed to Thomas Kibble at Green Trees. I assumed that this was from his acquaintances in Adelaide, but it could equally have been from a cousin about whom I didn't know.


GAFK Report 23 Feb 2017 00:19

Have found a James Hervey mentioned in the Will of a Thomas Kibble 5/7/1737-10/6/1819 (married to Sarah Martin)
Does not mention relationship, however states that he owed Thomas a considerable amount of money which Thomas, in the event of his death, did not want Trustees to make claim.
Probably because James was married to Isabella ( Daughter of Thomas)

Also a James Hervey mentioned in the Will of James Kibble 1777-19/8/1856 (married to Mary Ferrier)
He was one of the Executors of the Will, and also mentioned as Son in Law, husband of Elizabeth Kibble Hervey


GAFK Report 18 Feb 2017 04:53


Thank you to all of the above. You have been a great help, I now have some more places to look. Does anyone know James Kibble's wife, Mary Ferrier's birth date, death date, can not find her anywhere. I know their son George who came out to Australia was only about 20 yrs old when he arrived in approx 1840. I know she had already passed away then, I think somewhere between 1830 and 1835


GlasgowLass Report 17 Feb 2017 11:05

This is the only mention of a William Ferrier in Grenada
The date could suggest a son rather than the father?

Connected to The Resource Estate, Grenada

Google Books
Scots in the West Indies, 1707-1857, Volume 2

Ferrier, William
A Mason in Grenada 1805
NAS.RS GLASGOW 5624. Then in Glasgow 1810
NAS.SC.58. 59. 7.55

The Edinburgh Magazine and Literary Miscellany, Volume 90

At Brechin 1822
Marriage of William Ferrier Esq, late of Grenada to Miss Black

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 17 Feb 2017 10:14

Country Code GB
Repository Code 243
Repository Glasgow City Archives
Reference GB243/TD1039
Title James Kibble journals
Dates 1764-1803
Access Status Open

(did notice above earlier this morning)

google search also bringing Ferrier Kibble, Grenada items.

Chris :)


AustinQ Report 17 Feb 2017 09:51

Caledonian Mercury - Saturday 26 September 1801

At Paisley, 21 Inst, James Kibble, Merchant, Glasgow to Mary Ferrier daughter of Mr William Ferrier, Merchant, Grenada.

Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser - Saturday 02 May 1863

...that if Peter Cochrane the younger is found to have been a domiciled Scotchman at his death in 1835, his next of kin by Scotch law are the descendants of his father's Aunt Mary Cochrane who was married to her cousin, John Ferrier in 1744.
These descendants, whoever they are, are apparently the next of kin by Scotch law to Peter Cochrane the younger. From evidence in our informant's possession, these descendants would appear to embrace the present Ferrier family, also the descendants of William Ferrier who was born in 1751, and said to have emigrated to Grenada, and the descendants of Mary Ferrier born in 1764, and who married to Walter Ure, Glasgow


Eringobragh1916 Report 16 Feb 2017 20:08

I am sure Nicola will be able to shed some light on your family history if they are a part of hers...We have been following the Hervey Kibbles et al on here with Nicola since forever....!!!


GAFK Report 15 Feb 2017 23:22

Nicola, I am a descendant of James Kibble b1777 son of Thomas & Sarah Martin.
I think the Isabella Kibble who married James Hervey was James Kibble's sister.
James Kibble and wife Mary Ferrier had two sone who emigrated to Australia around 1842, one by the name George Augustus Kibble. He was my Great, Great Grandfather.
I read you now have the Kibble Family Bible. I am desperate for any information to help me fill in the gaps of my family history. We have a large Number of Kibble family members spread across Australia, a number of which are all looking for answers to their ancestry.
We have been unable to find any information on Mary Ferrier, however think her Father may have been from Grenada and his name William. Can you help us.


Nicola'S Report 11 Feb 2017 19:33

Hip replacement [second one] got in the way of all of this and also enormously distracted by "things".

I need to clear head/desk/stuff and then I'll begin to tackle all of this again.

In the meantime, thank you to everyone so far.


Nicola'S Report 25 Sep 2016 23:20

We've been away and only just returned. Wouldn't want any of you to think I was ignoring you - as if ............

But got a very busy week and more ahead, so will try my best to read up on all your very helpful aboves as soon as possible.

"I'll be back". :-D


mgnv Report 20 Sep 2016 20:13

Nicola - Re: [9/5/16 20:08] 'It reads that James Hervey senior was living in Kippen Parish, Perthshire when his son, also James, was born. James senior "farmed his own land". James junior "helped on the farm and was sent to Glasgow into a bank - probably that of Mr. Carrick, a relative". It reads that James junior "came to Manchester in 1802" where he was "later a drysalter and also was agent for the Atlas Insurance Office from the time it was established".'

GlasgowLass [10/5/16 00:22] is correct when she says "Kippen is actually in Stirlingshire", but that's present tense.

Ordnance Gazetteer of Scotland
Edited by Francis H. Groome (1892-6)
has 1890's maps showing parishes of every Scottish county.
Here is an excerpt from the entry for Kippen:
"The parish ... lies all compact on the S side of the Forth, and was partly in Perthshire until 1891, when the Boundary Commissioners placed the parish wholly in Stirlingshire. ... its area is 11331.5 acres, of which 76 are water, and 4966.5 belonged to the two Perthshire sections - the smaller containing Cauldhame and the larger Arnprior."

I first got suspicious when I looked up Harvie (with phonetic variants) in 1841 Kippen on FreeCEN, and saw 13 pob=Pert and 26 pob=Stirlingshire, plus 5 Outside census county.
Although I know of no relationship to your mob, I had to use some name, so here's a couple of examples:

1841 Census
Piece: SCT1841/484 Place: Kippen -Stirlingshire Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Kippen Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Perth
Folio: 0 Page: 4
Address: Shirgarton
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HARVEY Andrew M 30 Wright Perth
HARVEY Eliz F 25 Outside Census County (1841)
HARVEY Mary F 1 Perth
HARVEY George M 3m Perth

1841 Census
Piece: SCT1841/484 Place: Kippen -Stirlingshire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kippen Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Kippen
Folio: 297 Page: 6
Address: Kippen
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HARVIE Agnes F 65 Independent Stirlingshire
BUCHANAN Ann F 25 Female Servant Stirlingshire
COWAN Agnes F 9 Stirlingshire
KIRK John, The Rev M 30 Minister Hamilton Outside Census County (1841)

Shirgarton is just 300m WNW of Kippen parish church, near to which (presumably) Rev Kirk lives
Cauldhame is 600m WSW of the church.

Kippen Parish Church
Subject Location NS 650 948 [100m precision]

Old graveyard, Kippen
Subject Location NS 651 948 [100m precision]
Photographer Location NS 652 949

Since the photographer was further E and further N, the pic was taken lookibg SW

The old style OS coordinate measures the easting, and the northing (in metres) from the zero datum point 130km WSW off Lands End.
This point is chosen so that all land in Great Britain and its islands gets a positive easting, so the longitude datum line is set by St Kilda & Soay some 70km off North Uist, and the latitude datum line is set by the Scilly Isles.

If I go to and look up, say, Arnprior, and select the "Town", it takes me to some URL.
Embedded in that URL one can see: x=261323&y=694940
The old style OS coords are 261323,694940 and this is where the tip of the arrow is on Streetmap.
One can also look up 261323,694940 or NS 61323 94940 and get exactly the same map.
NS are the magic letters for the 2xxxxx,3xxxxx pair.
The newer,Landranger style, coords allow lesser precisions, such as:
NS 6132 9494 (with 10m precision) - here streetmap places the arrow tip in the middle of the imprecision square; or
NS 613 949 (with 100m precision); or even NS 61 94 (with 1km precision).
The spaces are optional, but help readability.

The blue grid lines on the map are 1km apart.
Arngibbon Burn (just N of Arnprior and named on the zoom level 3 map) forms the PER-STI border here. shows the W bondary of the Arnprior chunk. shows the E bondary of the Arnprior chunk and the entire Cauldhame chunk.

However, for some geographic details, you need the largest scale
[I say largest scale - this is true country wide, but one can find some city plans at an even larger scale]

"Monumental inscriptions (pre-1855) in West Stirlingshire", John F Mitchell & Sheila Mitchell, published Edinburgh, 1973 (Scottish Genealogy Society).
I found an omline copy via the FS catalog:
(Maybe it's time of day, but it took a while to load - but downloading the loaded version would cure that thereafter.
Kippen on images 92-99 (of 113))

There's also a companion vol:
Monumental inscriptions pre 1855 in East Stirlingshire
by John Fowler Mitchell and Sheila Mitchell
The same authors have 2 vols on Perth, but only the south is online
Monumental inscriptions, pre 1855 in South Perthshire; pt. 1


mgnv Report 15 Sep 2016 20:52

Tidying up some loose ends

GL's post 10/5/16 12:24
There's a missing page on Ancestry.

It would have helped to know the census refs of the two adjacent pages, which are:

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1541; Folio: 185; Page: 34; GSU etc.
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1541; Folio: 186; Page: 35; GSU etc.

To get an adjacent page, I normally just adjust the page number. If this fails, I then similarly adjust the folio number too.

Ancestry & FMP both allow searches by census ref, and they yield a page-full of names.
You do have to use the search page specific to the 1871 census, viz:

FMP gets 25 hits with
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1541; Folio: 186; Page: 35; GSU etc.

First name(s) Last name Birth year Birth county Registration district Parish County
Alice C Marshall 1856 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire
Edgar Marshall 1857 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire
Henry Marshall 1821 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire
Mary C Marshall 1836 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire

With this info I can find the family on FS:

England and Wales Census, 1871
Household ID 242
Event Place St Paul, Bedfordshire, England
Enumeration District 8
Entry Number 22-25 and 1-12
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/1541/0374
Henry Marshall Head M 50 Mauritius
Mary C Marshall Wife F 35 Mauritius [Retired]
Alice C Marshall Daughter F 15
Edgar Marshall Son M 14
Louisa Marshall Daughter F 13 Calcutta, East India [Scholar]
Ethel Marshall Daughter F 11 Paignton, Deoon
William A Marshall Son M 10 Miserden, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Marshall Daughter F 8 Lymington, Hampshire
Edward Marshall Son M 6 Hordle, Hampshire
Herbert Marshall Son M 5 Hordle, Hampshire
Ada Marshall Daughter F 2 Bedford, Bedfordshire
Frances Marshall Niece F 19 Adelaide, New South Wales
Maria Sheppard Boarder F 26 Boulden, Hampshire
Elizabeth Marriott Servant F 25 Bedford, Bedfordshire
Sarah Humphrey Servant F 20 Bedford, Bedfordshire
Susan Pope Servant F 20 Eynesbury, Huntingdonshire


Nicola'S Report 11 Sep 2016 19:23

Amazing CH - don't know how you do it!

How on earth did you come up with that website? Gruesome. I did look on it for another ancestor of mine's cause of death but it didn't come up. She died of 'Pre Confinement Fever' and I have always assumed that the poor thing had pre-eclampsia. Amazingly, although she died three days after the birth of her third child, the baby survived and went on to lead a healthy life.

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 11 Sep 2016 16:28

Scirrhus - Cancerous tumors

(from above, Old Names for
Illnesses and Causes of Death)

Chris :)


Nicola'S Report 11 Sep 2016 15:14

I have Christian's/Christina's DC in front of me now.

She died on 24th June 1850 and her first name is CLEARLY written as CHRISTIAN, aged 65, daughter of James Hervey, Merchant (deceased). So it all adds up and is deffo the right gal.

However, her cause of death is an odd one and I've tried googling it without success. It states 'Scirrus. 5 years. Certified'. The writing is very clear - makes a nice change - but I can get nothing up on what s.c.i.r.r.u.s. might be. Any medicos out there, please?


Nicola'S Report 5 Sep 2016 17:36

Have at last managed to get Janet in the 1861.
And now I don't feel quite so stupid about the 1871 census because Janet has been transcribed as JACOB. And the Enumerator has listed her as Jacob H. Marshall, i.e., taken her 'real' surname of Hervey and attached it to her sister's married surname of Marshall. AND listed her with a male first name in the female column - doncha just love family history research ..........................
Edit: looking back, I see that clever GlasgowLass also revealed that poor Janet was mistranscribed as Jacob in the 1871. There's so much to take on board with all of this, but It is all being painstakingly typed into the Family History records by me I promise. It will all be shared with cousins on a family holiday soon - they'll be very interested.