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Oswald Day Gell's biological father

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JMGT

JMGT Report 20 Oct 2017 18:50

Esther Day Gell (1864 - 1896) gave birth to my grandfather, Oswald Day Gell (14 th December 1890 - 1930) at Monk's Coppenhall, now Crewe in Cheshire. She was at the home of Rhoda Dean at 15 Brown Street at the time, but back with her mother, Hemingby, Lincolnshire shortly after the birth in 1891 without Oswald. He was 'adopted' by George and Eliza Thompson of Winterton, Cheshire in 1893, but had been with them as Nurse Child since early 1891. They were given £80 to bring him up etc, thus relieving Esther of all responsibility for him. Esther had been a milliner at her sister, Louisa Day Gant and her husband, Charles William Gant's businesses in Ashby, on the High Street, Lincolnshire, from the age of 17 years. Charles William has been suggested as a possible candidate too, as has Storey Jackson and Dr Robert Chambers Owen Indeed, she died there in 1896.

A will was written & signed just before her death and witnessed by a Dr. Robert Chambers Owen, Physician/Surgeon of Scunthorpe, via Doncaster & Storey (Starry/Storry) Jackson, Iron Monger of Ashby, Lincs. Louisa was the executor and Charles W Gant registered the death etc.

I am searching for Oswald's biological father. Anybody, any ideas, please? All info gratefully received.

He was led to believe that his father was a member of the gentry, but I have no proof. Rt Hon Algernon James Winn (son of 1st Baron St Oswald (Rowland Winn) has been sited by a Lincs. archivist, but again no real proof, just based on a hunch based on 30 years experience as archivist.

Thanks,
Janet M Gell Thompson :-)

malyon

malyon Report 20 Oct 2017 21:24

if you have no proof of his father I don't think you will ever find him

malyon

malyon Report 20 Oct 2017 21:28

Oswald was reg the 1891 march quarter

Births Mar 1891   (>99%)

Gell
 Oswald Day
 
 Nantwich
 8a
324

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 21 Oct 2017 08:06

I agree with malyon, if there is no father named on his birth certificate you are never going to know. You could check on a baptism for him as supposed fathers are sometimes recorded there but I wouldn't hold my breath. We all have dead ends in our family tree.

Kath. x

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 21 Oct 2017 08:58

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1294310?d=desc

(some info. on previous 'Thread' above)

Chris :)

Amokavid

Amokavid Report 21 Oct 2017 11:23

Locating the correct father from so far back without any hint of a name /proof /evidence, it is going to be difficult to discover who the father was!

I have several pieces of information regarding my grandads father (via my mother & aunts) but cannot prove who it was!!

My grandfather was born in 1878, no father on his Birth certificate & no notes as to the same on his Baptism entry, however we do know the surname of said father & that the family owned a business! grandads mother told him that much!

I have located a family of the said surname living in the same village where grandad was born & lived & they own a business, a business that would connect with my Grt grandmothers occupation!
Unfortunately there are 3 sons! but not knowing the fathes Christian name any one of those sons "could" be the father of my grandad!

I do know that the father acknowledged my grandad & paid towards his upkeep BUT it was done privately so no paperwork available, without proof, there is no way we can point the finger at any of the three sons OR even if I have found the correct family!

It's unfortunate that we shall never know who the father was especially as we do have some information, but NOT enought to be absolutely certain! but that's how it goes sometimes!

Joan.

JMGT

JMGT Report 21 Oct 2017 15:19

There's nothing on baptismal info either, but we do have the original adoption agreement, signed by the Thompson's over a penny stamp and a receipt of exchanged monies (£80 in 1893). I have messaged people researching similar ancestors to myself, but only one has read the message and not replied. Maybe they have nothing to add, but I wish they'd drop me a line so I can move on.

My grandfather was quite a character, maybe quite difficult, with a chip on his shoulder, as he discovered his adoption when he was 14 or 15. He wasn't baptised till this discovery took place and almost immediately left the Thompson's to become an apprentice grocer near Manchester. He ended up a manager of a Woodhead's Store in Bolsover, local to me and met my grandmother there, where she was in service. They eloped, as WW1 was imminent and my grandmother's parent's didn't support the match as Oswald was about to go off to war so to speak. He did so and survived, but returned a broken man, health wise. He passed away in 1930 having suffered TB and Malaria since his exploits in WW1 abroad?! I have most of his WW1 diary and have transcribed this as best I can. Interesting but no clues as to his patronage. There is a family story that he wanted to buy a race horse and my grandmother had to dissuade him from this goal?! He used to ride up and down high street on a post cart, blowing a post horn!!?? He fathered 3 children and two of those survive, but it seems few questions were asked in 'those days'??!!

Oswald held a grudge against the Thompson's after 'the discovery' and seldom visited them thenceforward. My grandmother did so after his death. I have investigated George Thompson, adoptive father a little and found him to be 'illegitimate' (b. 1837 ish) and may be adopted too. His mother was possibly a Maria Andrew from Messingham, Lincs. Eliza Thompson, his wife (nee Pool(e) came from a grocer's background, as did Esther on her mother's side and her sister, Louisa married into the Gant family, Ashby, Lincs. who were grocers primarily. She was milliner in the wider business of haberdashery. Charles William Gant seems a likely candidate to some genealogists, others favour the Winn family (Barons St Oswald). Oswald was not a family name anywhere otherwise. Esther died leaving a large sum of money for her sister to deal with as executor. A Storey Jackson (Ironmonger) and Dr Robert Chambers Owen witnessed Esther's will just prior to her death, at the home of Louisa and Charles William Gant in 1896, in Ashby, Lincs. Esther's mother died in 1893, as did the 1st Baron St Oswald. There were Thompsons in Appleby where the St Oswald's had a family seat. The Thompsons ran the post office there and it was part of Appleby Hall, with an adjoining door to the Baron's office.

I've written too much. Get carried away. Thanks you all so much. Janet x

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 21 Oct 2017 18:05

Who was Rhoda Dean 1890, at that address?...

Chris :)

(probably below then)

1891 (Find My Past)
Rhoda Dean Head Widower Male 59 1832 Living On Own Means Derbyshire, England
Thomas Wilkinson Boarder Single Male 48 1843 Engine Fitter Staffordshire, England
H E Saunders Boarder Single Male 17 1874 Railway Clerk
15 Browne Street, Coppenhall Monks, Nantwich, Cheshire


Dean Rhoda Ellen — 1891 Cheshire Electoral Registers Cheshire, England (Find My Past) (15 Brown Street)


(references below)

1891 (Find My Past)
George Thompson Head Married Male 44 1847 ? Lincolnshire, England
Eliza A Thompson Wife Married Female 34 1857 - Lincolnshire, England
Alice E Thompson Daughter - Female 8 1883 Scholar Broughton, Lincolnshire, England
Oswald D Gell Nursechild - Male 0 1891
Common Road, Broughton, Glanford Brigg, Lincolnshire


1901 (Find My Past)
George Thompson Head Married Male 54 1847 Iron Stone Miner Messingham, Lincolnshire, England
Eliza Ann Thompson Wife Married Female 46 1855 - Lincolnshire, England
Allice Ellen Thompson Daughter Single Female 18 1883 Dressmaker Broughton, Lincolnshire, England
Bertha Ann Thompson Daughter Single Female 9 1892 - Manley, Lincolnshire, England
Oswald Thompson Son Single Male 10 1891 - Nantwich, Cheshire, England
Harry Stancer Nurse Child Single Male 5 1896 - Patricroft, Lancashire, England
Earls Gate, Winterton, Glanford Brigg, Lincolnshire


1911 (Find My Past)
Eliza Ann Thompson Head Widow Female - 55 1856 Wolton Dale Barton Lincs
William Genders Boarder Widower Male Platelayer 57 1854 Wolpole Drone Lincs
Thomas Henry Dawson Boarder Single Male Bricklayer Labour 25 1886 Ruskington Lincs
Bertha Annie Thompson Daughter Single Female General Servant Domestic 19 1892 Broughton Lincs
Harry Stancer Thompson Son Single Male Milk Hawker 15 1896 Patricroft Yorks
Reginald Arthur Hunt Boarder Single Male Metal Turner 16 1895 Winterton Lincs
Address 65 Grosvenor St Crosby Scunthorpe
Parish Crosby
Census reference RG14 PN20079 RG78 PN1201 RD424 SD2 ED12 SN388


County Lincolnshire
Place Worlaby by Brigg
Church name St Clement
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 126
Marriage date 15 May 1882
Groom forename George
Groom surname THOMPSON
Groom age full age
Groom condition bachelor
Groom abode Broughton
Groom occupation miner
Bride forename Eliza Ann
Bride surname POOL
Bride age full age
Bride condition spinster
Bride abode Worlaby
Groom father forename Thomas
Groom father surname THOMPSON
Groom father occupation labourer
Bride father forename William
Bride father surname POOL
Bride father occupation labourer
Witness Richard POOL
Witness Sarah JOHNSON
Register note banns

https://www.freereg.org.uk/


Birth
THOMPSON, ALICE ELLEN (POOL)
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in GLANFORD BRIGG Volume 07A Page 722


Birth
THOMPSON, BERTHA ANNIE (POOL)
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in GLANFORD BRIGG Volume 07A Page 658


Birth
STANCER, HARRY -
GRO Reference: 1895 S Quarter in BARTON UPON IRWELL Volume 08C Page 733

JMGT

JMGT Report 21 Oct 2017 20:31

Rhoda Dean lived at 15 Brown St Monks Coppenhall, now Crewe Cheshire. She was the head of the household and a land lady. I don’t know how Esther came to go there to give birth. I visited the area and 15 Brown St was still standing, but that was some years ago now.
Thank you for looking this up for me, Chris Ho. Esther registered the birth here too. She named my grandfather, Oswald Day Gell. The Thompson name wasn’t added till the official adoption in 1893. I do know quite a bit, just not who Oswald’s natural father was. I am trying to follow different leads, in case I can find something out via a different stand point.
Thanks again. I very much appreciate this. Janet

Amokavid

Amokavid Report 21 Oct 2017 21:24

OFFICIAL adoption didn't come into force until 1926/27! so it would seem to me that the "adoption" in your grandfathers case in 1893 must have been something that was arranged privately between the people concerned!

I'm sure if say a Solicitor had helped draw up any paperwork then his signature would have been shown as well!

I still don't see how you are going to locate / prove the Birth father?

Joan.

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 23 Oct 2017 06:49

You say George Thompson born 1837ish (do you mean around 1847 as Census)

Chris :)

(below posted earlier)

County Lincolnshire
Place Worlaby by Brigg
Church name St Clement
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 126
Marriage date 15 May 1882
Groom forename George
Groom surname THOMPSON
Groom age full age
Groom condition bachelor
Groom abode Broughton
Groom occupation miner
Bride forename Eliza Ann
Bride surname POOL
Bride age full age
Bride condition spinster
Bride abode Worlaby
Groom father forename Thomas
Groom father surname THOMPSON
Groom father occupation labourer
Bride father forename William
Bride father surname POOL
Bride father occupation labourer
Witness Richard POOL
Witness Sarah JOHNSON
Register note banns

https://www.freereg.org.uk/


(if you mean her below perhaps)

Burial
County Lincolnshire
Place Messingham
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 883
Burial date 27 Mar 1849
Person age 35
Burial person forename Maria
Burial person surname ANDREW
Burial person abode From brigg union workhouse

https://www.freereg.org.uk


(if below related)

14 January 1842 - Lincolnshire Chronicle - Lincoln, Lincolnshire, England

Maria Andrew, singlewoman, aged 24, for concealing the birth of her female child at Holbeach, on the October last. Pleaded guilty...


https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

(above for Newspapers, also Find My Past and Genes R. Subscriptions needed)

JMGT

JMGT Report 23 Oct 2017 14:51

Thank you so much Chris Ho??,
Yes, (Bap. 5 August) 1837 is when Maria Andrew gave birth to a George, another George was born to another woman in 1836 (17 July Bap.) named George Milson base son Mary Willimot and both in parish of Messingham. From Lincs Archives 2006.
This is a great help as I seem to be rubbish at reconnoitering records myself.
Janet ??

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 23 Oct 2017 16:14

Is this Geoge below?, not sure why you are looking at Births 1830's...

(he names a Thomas Thompson as Father on his Marriage)

Chris :)

Deaths Sep 1907 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
THOMPSON George 60 Glanford B. 7a 348


Edits

Deaths Dec 1935 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Thompson Eliza A 80 Glanford B. 7a 787

JMGT

JMGT Report 23 Oct 2017 21:42

Hi Chris Ho

Looks llike you’re right. Sorry. George Thompson was born in 1847 so if Maria Andrew was his mother, then she died 2 years after giving birth to him and in the Brigg Union Workhouse. The info I have to suggest he was born in 1837 with mother as Maria Andrew may be wrong and the Mary Willimo suggestion too. Did you see the name of George’s mother anywhere at all please? Maybe Maria Andrew was his mother after all?! I don’t know. I will look for Thomas Thompson’s information.
Was Eliza 77 when she died not 80? I have her on the 1891 Census as 34 years of age and George is 44.
Ok. Thanks again.
Janet

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 24 Oct 2017 07:34

You would need to get Death Certs...

No idea on Mother of George, a few George's about on Census.

(the Lincs. archivist you mention did they not uncover any George, with a Father Thomas, had you not got the Marriage Cert. details?, you mentioned Anthony Adolph on other 'Thread', did he uncover anything?)

Chris :)

Don't like to say, but some things stay hidden, you can have theories, but until definite proof, unfortunately will remain a mystery...

Tiggit

Tiggit Report 24 Oct 2017 12:55

There's this baptism:

Link for reporting error in transcription Field Value
County Lincolnshire
Place (link for place information) Glanford Brigg
Church name St John
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 209
Baptism date 24 Mar 1847
Person forename George
Person sex M
Person abode Brigg
Father forename Thomas
Father surname THOMPSON
Father occupation Tailor
Mother forename Ann
Witness
Witness
Register note
Transcriber notes


Janet, what makes you think that George was illegitimate?

JMGT

JMGT Report 25 Oct 2017 13:01

Thank you Tiggit and Chris Ho. I really appreciate your continued interest in pushing me forward on this.
Professionals have led me to believe he was illegitimate as they gave me an 1837 birth date and 2 possible mother’s therein. Both unmarried but hopefully, this is the correct record. It’s nice to know he was a taylor, as it may link to another tailor/post office proprietor, surname Thompson living in Appleby, he married Mabel Hall whose sister worked at Appleby House as Cook, I believe. Lord St Oswald owned the hall, dowager duchess lived there and this may link up to that tenuous idea as Lord St Oswald was MP and had an office directly linked to the post office via a doorway or so I was told by a local historian to Appleby. Many thanks again.
Janet

JMGT

JMGT Report 9 Nov 2017 18:25

Hi, Tiggit,

You last posting was really helpful to me and I have tried to discover more about Thomas Thompson and his wife Mary Ann Glassby (says Ann on the info). I think I found the right spouse for Thomas?
A ny way, I am now trying to establish if there was a link between the George (1847 - 1907)/Thomas/Mary Ann Thompson (Glassby) family of Barton On Brigg, Glanford Brigg and the Thompson's in Appleby Glanford Brigg - Enoch, John and Charles Henry (1860 - 1908) Thompson. Thomas was a tailor in 1843 and on your info in 1847 I noted, as were the Appleby Thompson's who also ran the Appleby Post Office and I believe John Thompson was Minister too - Methodist, I assume?! Any way, I haven't found a link yet, either through being related or linked via work. I wondered if you could give me any advice re this pursuit please? I have looked on https://www.freereg.org.uk and found ancestors, I think but can't get my brain around it.
Any good? Thanks, Janet xxx