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Sorry to hear about your grand-daughter's accident - I hope she's not injured.


Re the witness Sarah Lamar - is the name clearly Lamar?
I found two women apparently with similar surnames in the Manchester/Bolton area in 1871, but both names are mistranscriptions - one is really Turner, and the other Lomax.

Hope she is O.K. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dea Xxx

You are all so wonderful. Sorry not been in touch but my granddaughter was involved in a car accident. She was so lucky.
Patrick and Margaret married in Bolton in 2872. Bolton is where Margaret was living. The witness were James O'Neill and Sarah Lamar.

I have been wondering about this one but I can't find anything to prove or disprove it at the moment.....

I know his age is a bit out but if he was a little younger, or even the same age as Margaret, he might have wanted to appear slightly older??? - It very often happened:

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Foggs Place, Wigan, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Patrick O'Neil Head - Male 60 1811 - Ireland - Chemical Labourer (unemployed)
Mary O'Neil Wife - Female 48 1823 - Ireland
Phelim O'Neil Son - Male 20 1851 - Ireland - coal miner
Patrick O'Neil Son - Male 18 1853 - Ireland - coal miner

He 'is' a miner, he was living in the area and he did have a father called Patrick who might well have been a Farmer in the past if only I could find these people on another census . ??

Dea x

Do the witnesses give any clues? I did spot a Patrick and a brother who were miners living with their mother on the 1871 census - but Ancestry had them down as born Galway, Scotland, the image wasn't very clear. Don't seem to be able to find it again - and I'm going out soon, maybe someone else could find them even if just to eliminate him.

Actually just found it but this one is living in the north east so less likely?

Patrick Oneil
[Patrick O'Neil ]
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Mary C Neil
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland, Galway, Ireland
Civil Parish: Stella
Ecclesiastical parish: Stella
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Registration district: Gateshead
Sub-registration district: Winlaton
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 117
Piece: 5067
Folio: 40
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary C Neil 62 (widow)
Henry C Neil 23
Patrick Oneil 21

Gosh you are amazing. I will have to settle down and check it all out.
I do have Patrick and Margaret marriage certificate and it states Patrick's father was called Patrick o'neill and his occupation was farmer.
Patrick who was married to Margaret had his occupation as miner

Thanks Flip :-)

The 1861 census would eliminate that one Rose, it was clearly O'Kell

I wonder about this ArgyllGran? EDIT NOT THIS ONE , does appear to be O'Kell

Hard to read for sure

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Peter Street, Parr, Prescot, Lancashire, England

William O'Kell Head - Male 55 1816 - Cheshire, England
Margaret O'Kell Wife - Female 46 1825 - Lancashire, England
Samuel O'Kell Son - Male 18 1853 - Lancashire, England
Sabina O'Kell Daughter - Female 15 1856 - Lancashire, England
Jane O'Kell Daughter - Female 12 1859 - Lancashire, England
Margaret O'Kell Daughter - Female 9 1862 - Lancashire, England
Isaac Hill Lodger - Male 27 1844 - Lancashire, England
Alice Hill Lodger - Female 23 1848 - Lancashire, England
Hannah Hill Lodger - Female 4 1867 - Lancashire, England
Margaret Hill Lodger - Female 2 1869 - Lancashire, England

Here's that 1857 Sabina birth on GRO website:

NEILL, SABINA mms WATERS
GRO Reference: 1857 S Quarter in LEIGH Volume 08C Page 161


EDIT:
sorry, I deleted my post about Ellen's birth before I saw Rambling's reply.
I remembered belatedly that of course there would be lots of births with the same ref nos.

Parents of that Ellen could be this couple?

Marriages Jun 1853 (>99%)
Cunningham Hannah Leigh 8c 189

O'Neill Michael Leigh 8c 189

Parents of that Ellen could be this couple?

Marriages Jun 1853 (>99%)
Cunningham Hannah Leigh 8c 189

O'Neill Michael Leigh 8c 189

You have nothing on Patrick prior to his marriage to Margaret Carney. I see she is with her family in the right area in 1861/71, what about this for Patrick?

Patrick Oneill
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Gender: Male
Where born: Tuam, Ireland
[Tuam, Galway, Ireland]
Civil Parish: Fulwood
Ecclesiastical parish: Fulwood
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: Broughton
ED, institution, or vessel: Fulwood Barracks
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 4218
Folio: 115
Page Number: 31

He is listed with many other men, single, a private.

Added: Do you have a copy of Patrick & Margaret's marriage certificate to see who he named as father (if he knew) and their occupations? If not you may need it to get any further with him, Sabina or Michael to establish a connection if there is one other than the christening.

If Shirley's birth posted is promising, I believe that birth was in Cloona, Ballina Ireland and this could be Sabina with son John, age a little out but not that much:

Oneill John 45 Male Head of Family R C
Oneill Bridget 29 Female Wife R C (married 3 years, 1 child)
Oneill Elizabeth 2 Female Daughter R C
Oneill Sabina 73 Female Mother R C (Widow)

Residents of a house 4 in Knockegan and Cloonagh Beg (Ballina Rural, Mayo)

They were also on 1901 census (same area)

ONeill Sabina 50 Female Head of Family Roman Catholic (widow)
ONeill John 30 Male Son Roman Catholic
ONeill Michael 20 Male Son Roman Catholic
ONeill Anne 22 Female Daughter Roman Catholic

I'm not entirely convinced this is the Sabina from the christening record though.

If I don't reply quickly it's because I am in work this morning so will be later today
Thank you x

Rambling thank you so much

Posting this on the offchance. There is a birth for Sabina as noted 1857 which does not appear to come up on the GRO,

This birth in 1856 'could' be a sister??? No sign of her on census either?Maybe worth looking at?

O NEILL, WINNEY mmn STEAD
GRO Reference: 1856 D Quarter in LEIGH Volume 08C Page 152

Flip
Thank you for your help. I have that record and all others from when Patrick and Margaret married . It's Patrick's family I.e his parents brothers sisters etc.. I'm trying to find. But thank you any way.

Shirley
That record looks really promising. A glimmer of hope at last
Thank you

There is a birth reg on FreeBMD and FMP for a Sabina in 1857 but it is not showing on GRO or on Lancs BMD ???

Births Sep 1857
O'Neill Sabina Leigh 8c 161

Dea x

I think this is the right family:

Patrick O Neil
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Margaret O Neil
Gender: Male
Where born: Galway, Ireland
Civil Parish: Bedford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 18 Chapmans Rd
Marital status: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Rag Merchant
Registration district: Leigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3803
Folio: 48
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Patrick O Neil 32
Margaret O Neil 28 (b Galway)
Mary O Neil 8
John O Neil 5
Catherine O Neil
Patrick O Neil
John Carney 49 (b Galway, father in law)