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Kind help needed

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

lavender

lavender Report 24 Sep 2019 23:10

Wow, so much to study, thank you Alviegal, also..

In answer to your question Chris, Florence Beatrice Flower Reading's mother was Mary Reading b 1838 Chesham. I have the birth certificate. The father was not stated.

I've only just found the posts but I know from someone's dna tree that they have a John Flower b 1819 whose daughter is Ellen Flower b 1852. She apparently married John William King b 1856 Whitwell, Herts.. according to this person's tree they have three children -

John Flower King b 1886 - 1949
May King b 1887
Ivy Ellen King b 1889 - 1947
Grace King - 1892

I only came across this information so haven't had time to process it. :-)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 24 Sep 2019 21:00

The John Flower King thing is very confusing.

I wonder if the registrar was confused too!
He's assumed John's father's name was King, because John was calling himself King for some reason.

In 1870 it looks as if Harriet's father listed her as living with him, whereas she was actually married and living with John "King".

(If that's the same Harriet.)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 24 Sep 2019 20:44

You've confused me too, Alviegal!

This is the 1900 family with whom Florence M (niece) is living - and is also the family with Harriet in 1870, as you've posted:

Thomas J. Taylor
in the 1880 United States Federal Census
Name: Thomas J. Taylor
Age: 49
Birth Date: Abt 1831
Birthplace: Ireland
Home in 1880: New York City, New York, New York, USA
Street: East Nintieth
House Number: 502
Dwelling Number: 123
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
Marital status: Married
Spouse's name: Mary Taylor
Father's Birthplace: Ireland
Mother's Birthplace: Ireland
Occupation: Money Broker
Neighbors:
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas J. Taylor 49
Mary Taylor 49
Thomas Taylor 24
Fannie Taylor 22
Robert Taylor 21
Mary Taylor 14
William Taylor 10
Jennie Taylor 8
Emma Green 4

alviegal

alviegal Report 24 Sep 2019 20:27

I've now got myself totally confused :-S

alviegal

alviegal Report 24 Sep 2019 20:05

Harriet King in 1870 living with John King 25, a tinsmith and son, Walter 1.


Us Census 1870

First name(s) Harriet
Last name King
Gender Female
Age 20
Birth year 1850
Birth place New York
Race White
Residence New York, United States
City/township New York City, Ward 05
County New York
State New York



Next door is

Name: Harriet Taylor
Age in 1870: 17
Birth Year: abt 1853
Birthplace: New York
Dwelling Number: 28
Home in 1870: New York Ward 5 District 6 (2nd Enum), New York, New York
Race: White
Gender: Female
Post Office: New York City
Occupation: Keeping House


living with Thomas Taylor, a money broker, his wife Mary and children Henrietta, Jefferson, Fanny, Robert, Mary, George, William.




Which appears to be this family in 1860.


Us Census 1860

Graggan Male 30 Nathan 1830 Scotland
Graggan Female 24 Maria 1836 Scotland
Taylor Male 30 Thomas J 1830 Ireland
Taylor Female 30 Mary 1830 Ireland
Taylor Female 8 Harriett 1852 New York
Taylor Female 6 Henretta 1854 New York
Taylor Male 4 Thomas 1856 New York
Taylor Female 2 Fanny 1858 New York
Taylor Male 0 Robert 1860 New York

alviegal

alviegal Report 24 Sep 2019 19:36

Harriet's marriage. Very strange.

United States Marriages

First name(s) Harriet L
Last name Taylor
Sex Female
Age 18
Birth year 1851
Father's first name(s) Triod Jones
Father's last name Taylor
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name Phillips
Event Marriage
Year 1869
Event date 14 Oct 1869
Location Manhattan
Place Manhattan, New York City, New York, United States
County New York City
State New York
Country United States
Spouse's first name(s) John Flower
Spouse's last name King
Spouse's sex Male
Spouse's age 23
Spouse's birth year 1846
Spouse's father's first name(s) John
Spouse's father's last name King
Spouse's mother's first name(s) Mercy
Spouse's mother's last name Flower



Name: Harriet Louise Taylor
Race: White
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 14 Nov 1869
Marriage Place: New York, New York, USA
Church Name: City Mission Society
Father: Thomas Jones Taylor
Mother: Mary Taylor
Spouse: John Hower King (tinsmith)


EDIT

Name: John Flower King
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 14 Nov 1869
Marriage Place: New York, New York, USA
Church Name: St Ambrose (Thompson and Prince Sts)
Spouse: Harriet L. Taylor

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 24 Sep 2019 19:28

Who was the Mother of Florence Reading 1866?

(just wondered)

Chris :)

alviegal

alviegal Report 24 Sep 2019 19:07

Florence M from the above 1880 census? Living on East 81, Manhatten.

Record Transcription:
Us Census 1900

Thomas J Taylor Self Widowed Male 70 1830 Ireland
Fanye E Taylor Daughter Single Female 44 1856 New York
William Taylor Son Single Male 30 1870 New York
Florence M Flower Niece Single Female 22 1878 New York
Thomy Whirt Grandson Single Male 8 1892 New York


and her baptism.


New York Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms

First name(s) Florence
Last name Flower
Birth year 1878
Birth date 19 Oct 1878
Baptism year 1905
Baptism date 19 Jun 1905
Parish St Paul the Apostle
Location Manhattan
County New York County
State New York
Country United States
Mother's first name(s) Harriett
Mother's last name Taylor
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Flower
Residence 1452 First Ave
Archdiocese New York
Record set New York Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms



Son, John's marriage. Was your John Flower Catholic?




New York Roman Catholic Parish Marriages

First name(s) Joannam J
Last name Flower
Birth year -
Role Groom
Marriage year 1895
Marriage date 04 Jul 1895
Parish St Anthony of Padua
Location Manhattan
County Manhattan
State New York
Father's name Joannis Flower
Mother's name Harriet Taylor
Spouse's first name(s) Margaritam
Spouse's last name Cavanagh
Spouse's father's name Michaelis Cavanagh
Spouse's mother's name Annae Monahan

lavender

lavender Report 24 Sep 2019 18:43

Thank you so much Argyll Gran and also Chris Ho! So kind... and all so wonderful helpful.

Yes, it is difficult to be absolutely certain as to John Flower's identification in USA.. I had the very same thought as to whether Florence had been named after a firstborn!

I had identified this Flower family as being a likely father for my Gt Grandmother Florence B Flower Reading so was thrilled to find these names linked on someone that matched my dna.

Lots to be looking at this week!

Many thanks again :-)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 24 Sep 2019 13:32

If the above family is the right one, this might perhaps be the daughter Florence M, named after John's mother ?? Just a wild conjecture!

Florence Mercy Flower
in the New York and Vicinity, United Methodist Church Records, 1775-1949
Name: Florence Mercy Flower
Event Type: Membership
Membership Date: 19 Apr 1908
Membership Place: Cornell, New York, USA


EDIT:

But could also be the daughter of Walter Flower , who is in the 1880 census above.

Here's Walter with family including daughter Florence M in 1900:

Florance M Flower
in the 1900 United States Federal Census
Name: Florance M Flower
Birth Date: Feb 1895
Birthplace: New York
Home in 1900: Manhattan, New York, New York
Street: East 76 Street
House Number: 347
Sheet Number: 5
Number of Dwelling in Order of Visitation: 10
Family Number: 133
Race: White
Gender: Female
Relation to Head of House: Daughter
Marital status: Single
Father's name: Walter Flower
Father's Birthplace: New York
Mother's name: Tillie Flower
Mother's Birthplace: New York
Years in US: 43
Can Read: Yes
Can Write: No
Can Speak English: Yes
House Owned or Rented: O
Home Free or Mortgaged: M
Farm or House: H
Neighbors:
Household Members:
Name Age
Walter Flower
Tillie Flower
Florance M Flower
Maud N Flower
Lillie Flower


Cornell is also where Walter and Tillie married:

Walter Frederick Flower
in the New York and Vicinity, United Methodist Church Records, 1775-1949
Name: Walter Frederick Flower
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 23
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1871
Birth Place: N Y
Marriage Date: 27 May 1894
Marriage Place: Cornell, New York, USA
Spouse: Matilda M Wenke

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 24 Sep 2019 13:21

?? Right age, and born England - but that's not enough to identify him:


John Flower
in the 1880 United States Federal Census
Name: John Flower
Age: 34
Birth Date: Abt 1846
Birthplace: England
Home in 1880: New York City, New York, New York, USA
House Number: 316
Dwelling Number: 31
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
Marital status: Married
Spouse's name: Harriet L. Flower
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Birthplace: England
Occupation: Hardware Store
Neighbors:
Household Members:
Name Age
John Flower 34
Harriet L. Flower 28
Walter Flower 10
Jennie F. Flower 8
John Flower 4
Florence M. Flower 2

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 24 Sep 2019 13:01

Emma Flower was a sister of John 1846:

FLOWER, EMMA mms BEVERIDGE
GRO Reference: 1862 D Quarter in SAINT ALBANS Volume 03A Page 293

FLOWER, JOHN mms BEVERIDGE
GRO Reference: 1846 S Quarter in SAINT ALBANS UNION HERTS Volume 06 Page 457

lavender

lavender Report 24 Sep 2019 09:58

Wonderful, thank you so very much, Chris X
:-) :-) :-)

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 24 Sep 2019 09:34

Not a lot of time this morning!, but there is below, if relating...

Chris :)

20 July 1889 - Herts Advertiser - St Albans, Hertfordshire, England

Marriage
Flower - Adams July 10th, at St. Jude's Church, South Kensington, by the Rev. Prebendary Forest D.D., Jane Josephine Adams, of South Kensington, London, to Mr. Joseph Flower, of New York.


Marriages Sep 1889 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
Adams Jane Josephine Kensington 1a 248
Flower Joseph Kensington 1a 248


(below is under other Marriage notice also)

Newell - Flower - July 18, at the Congregational Chapel, Spicer-street, St. Albans, by the Rev. W. Urwick, M.A., Emma, youngest daughter of Mr John Flower, of St. Albans, to Mr. Edward Newell, of Pontypridd.


Marriages Sep 1889 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
NEWELL Edward St Albans 3a 731
Flower Emma St. Alban's 3a 731


1871
Charles Reading Head - Male 59 1812 - Buckinghamshire, England
Sophia Reading Wife - Female 59 1812 - Buckinghamshire, England
Charles Reading Son - Male 24 1847 - Buckinghamshire, England
Thomas Reading Son - Male 20 1851 - Buckinghamshire, England
Florance B Reading Granddaughter - Female 4 1867 - Hertfordshire, England
Church Street, Chesham, Amersham, Buckinghamshire


1881
Charles Reading Head Widower Male 70 1811 Ginger Beer Traveller Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Florence B Reading Gra Daughter Single Female 14 1867 Genl Serv Domestic St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Thames Street, Staines, Middlesex & Surrey


1851
Sophia Reading Wife Married Female 40 1811 - Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Charles Reading Head Married Male 39 1812 Straw Plait Dealer Farmer Of 16 Acres Employ 4 Lab Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
James Reading Son - Male 15 1836 At Home Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Sarah Reading Daughter - Female 14 1837 Scholar Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Mary Reading Daughter - Female 12 1839 Scholar Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Sophia A Reading Daughter - Female 5 1846 Scholar Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Charles Reading Son - Male 3 1848 - Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Martha Reading Daughter - Female 2 1849 - Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Thomas Reading Son - Male - - - Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
Church Street, Chesham, Amersham, Buckinghamshire


1841
Charles Reading Male 30 1811 Buckinghamshire, England (Plait Dealer)
Mary Reading Female 25 1816 Buckinghamshire, England
James Reading Male 6 1835 Buckinghamshire, England
Sarah Reading Female 4 1837 Buckinghamshire, England
Mary Reading Female 2 1839 Buckinghamshire, England
Germaine Street, Chesham, Amersham, Buckinghamshire


Birth
READING, FLORENCE BEATRICE FLOWER -
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in SAINT ALBANS Volume 03A Page 325

(who was her Mother?)


Edits (on 1889 Marriage image, Joseph (39) Widower, occ. Fruiterer, Spencer Street, St.Albans. Father, John Flower, occ. Whitesmith)


1861
John Flower Head Married Male 43 1818 Tin & Zinc Plate Worker St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Mercy Flower Wife Married Female 44 1817 - Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England
John Flower Son - Male 14 1847 Iron Monger St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Joseph Flower Son - Male 12 1849 Silk Winder St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Ellen Flower Daughter - Female 9 1852 Scholar St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
William Flower Son - Male 6 1855 Scholar St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Jane Flower Daughter - Female 4 1857 Scholar St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Mary A Flower Daughter - Female 0 1861 - St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Abbey Mill Lane, St Alban, St Albans, Hertfordshire


1871
John Flower Head - Male 53 1818 (Tin and Iron Plate Worker)- Hertfordshire, England
Mary Flower Wife - Female 53 1818 - Hertfordshire, England
Ellen Flower Daughter - Female 19 1852 - Hertfordshire, England
Jane Flower Daughter - Female 14 1857 - Hertfordshire, England
Mary A Flower Daughter - Female 10 1861 - Hertfordshire, England
Emma Flower Daughter - Female 8 1863 - Hertfordshire, England
Spencer Street, St Alban, St Albans, Hertfordshire


1881
John Flower Head Married Male 62 1819 Tin Iron Plate Worker &C St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Mercy Flower Wife Married Female 62 1819 - Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England
Ellen Flower Daughter Single Female 29 1852 Straw Hat Machinist St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Jane Flower Daughter Single Female 24 1857 Straw Hat Machinist St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Mary A Flower Daughter Single Female 20 1861 Drapers Assistant St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Emma Flower Daughter Single Female 18 1863 Straw Hat Machinist St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
Spencer Street, St Albans, Hertfordshire


1891
John Flower Head Widower Male 73 1818 Gas Fitter Bell Hanger Hertfordshire, England
Jane Richardson Daughter Widow Female 34 1857 Straw Hat Finisher Hertfordshire, England
Emma Newell Daughter Married Female 29 1862 - Hertfordshire, England
Sidney E Richardson Grandson - Male 7 1884 - Hertfordshire, England
Edward S Newell Grandson - Male 0 1891 - Hertfordshire, England
Evelyn Newell Granddaughter - Female 0 1891 - Hertfordshire, England
Edward Newell Son In Law Single Male 25 1866 Grocers Assistant Montgomeryshire, Wales
Joseph Newell Visitor Single Male 12 1879 - Merionethshire, Wales
Spencer Street, St Albans, Hertfordshire


The Father Death below, with Will...

Deaths Sep 1891 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Flower John 73 St Albans 3a 269

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills


(Wife Mercy Death 1889)


(just to add, Hertfordshire Baptisms (FMP) for John and Joseph Flower, no Birthdates given on images)


County Hertfordshire
Place St Albans
Church name Abbey
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 117
Marriage date 03 May 1846
Groom forename John
Groom surname FLOWER
Groom parish Abbey
Groom condition bachelor
Groom occupation Tin-plate Worker
Groom abode St. Albans
Bride forename Mary
Bride surname BEVERIDGE
Bride parish St. Peter's
Bride condition spinster
Bride abode St. Albans
Groom father forename Joseph
Groom father surname FLOWER
Groom father occupation Corporation Beadle
Bride father forename Richard
Bride father surname BEVERIDGE
Bride father occupation Labourer
Witness1 James PINNOCK
Witness2 Mary PINNOCK


County Hertfordshire
Place St Albans
Church name St Peter
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 1387
Burial date 15 Aug 1891
Burial person forename John
Burial person surname FLOWER
Person age 73
Burial person abode Spencer Street, Abbey Parish

https://www.freereg.org.uk/


(possible, New York)

Joseph Flower (Arrival Date) 22 Jul 1871 (Birth Year) abt 1849 London, England English (Ship Name) Constantine (occ. Tin Smith)

lavender

lavender Report 24 Sep 2019 09:17

I have a dna connection to two brothers, John Flower b 1846 St Albans, Herts and Joseph Flowers b 1849 St Albans, Herts or their father also John Flower b 1819 St Albans, Herts as the father of my Gt Grandmother, Florence Beatrice Flower Reading b 1866 St Albans, Herts. (illegitimate)

I can find information on John Flower b 1819 and his son Joseph Flower b 1849 but am struggling to find anything definite beyond Census 1861 for the elder son John Flower b 1846?

His brother Joseph Flower b 1849 settles in New York but am unable to find travel documentation for John Flower b 1846. There are a few naturalisation documents for a John Flower but they don't include a date of birth to confirm it's him.

Many thanks for any kind help offered :-) :-)