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More precise dates

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


ArgyllGran Report 23 Nov 2021 16:12

Marriages Mar 1894 (>99%)
Prince Thomas Ormskirk 8b 970
Turner Adelaide Ormskirk 8b 970

Adelaide Turner
in the Lancashire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Name: Adelaide Turner
Gender: Female
Age: 23
Birth Year: abt 1871
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 Mar 1894
Parish: Birkdale, St Peter, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Thomas Prince, painter
Spouse Age: 22
Father: John Turner - stonemason
Spouse Father: Thomas Prince, painter
Register Type: Parish Register


ArgyllGran Report 23 Nov 2021 16:10

As well as Rosalia -

GRO Reference: 1910 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 850

GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 854

GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 903

GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 864

GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 838

GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 874

GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 836

GRO Reference: 1894 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 765


alviegal Report 23 Nov 2021 13:16

Rosie's mother in 1939 with a daughter? Looks like entertaining ran in the family.

10 Arbour Street, Southport, Southport C.B., Lancashire, England

Household members (2 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth date Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule sub number
Adelaide Prince 08 Jan 1867 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed 264 1
Lena Kiegerd (Price) 02 Feb 1910 Female Professional Dancer Single 264 2


ErikaH Report 22 Nov 2021 18:50

Certs cost £11.00 each from the GRO


Howard Report 22 Nov 2021 18:21

Many thanks for all your help, I have only just joined and was quite overwhelmed. I did hope when I joined that it gave me access to copies of the actual certificates, obviously a bit naive, but thanks anyway for your clarification. I also have a photograph of my Mum on stage with Joe Bettison.

Lots to get on with.

Thanks again.


ErikaH Report 22 Nov 2021 12:34

GRO Reference: 1896 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 806


ErikaH Report 21 Nov 2021 17:09

There was a sister Irene born 1927, died 1928

John Witter married Rosie Prince in 1921

The marriage is on FMP and on LanOPC - his father was named Squire
27/08/1921. John was 32, Rosie was 24. they were next-door neighbours


Now using PC, so can C&P

Marriage: 27 Aug 1921 St Andrew, Oldham, Lancashire, England
John Witter - 32, Engineer, Bachelor, 27 Bloom Street
Rosie Prince - 24, Spinster, 29 Bloom Street
Groom's Father: Squire Witter, Machinist
Bride's Father: Thomas Prince, Painter
Witness: George Vincent Mellor; Frances Makin
Married by Banns by: Ernest Nickson, Curate
Register: Marriages 1907 - 1921, Page 245, Entry 490
Source: LDS Film 2357993

Can't see the couple, or their daughter, in 1939, nor can I see any records for Rosie after the marriage - anywhere

This could be Rosie's husband's death

Name: John Witter
Death Age: 48
Birth Date: abt 1889
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec 1937
Registration District: Oldham
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 973

Fits with the info on the baptism
Name: John Witter
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 22 Feb 1889
Baptism Date: 7 May 1890
Baptism Place: Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: Squire Witter
Mother: Frances
FHL Film Number: 1656070
Reference ID: item 1 p 84

None of which gives Howard what he wants..................the certs are the only solution


ErikaH Report 21 Nov 2021 12:39

Deaths Sep 1957 (>99%)
SHIP Eve 35 Eastbourne 5h 212

Births Mar 1922 (>99%)
Witter Frances Prince Oldham 8d 1122

No baptism record on lanopc

The marriage to Ship was under both Eve and Frances


ArgyllGran Report 20 Nov 2021 22:03

Fuller transcription:

When will the war end?” was question written on a slip of paper on Monday evening. Mervo says it will be quite—oh, yes—quite a long time. Asked about the matrimonial prospects of a certain anxious lover in the audience he advanced the opinion that the probabilities were that the lady would wear the trousers, and he advised his client to stick to that useful garment while he could. It is, as may be gathered from this brief summary, not only an interesting but an impressive turn. Yesterday morning, too, Mr Mervo succeeded (we have no doubt.that he succeeded) in finding an article —he being blindfolded—hidden somewhere in the streets of Eastbourne. The company is of all-round excellence this week, variety, in the best sense of the term, being its characteristic. The UJ3.A.3” for instance, is trio of clever musical performers who give a remarkably bright turn. Horns, guitars, saxophones are their medium, the saxophone (bass variety) being of fine tone and exceptionally true to musical pitch. A roar of applause followed their efforts. Les Hall is a neat and' clever talkative juggler who talks well and juggles better. Pretty dances of exceptional grace come from Antonette and Nino; In Plorette is a singer with a style of her own; Basil Cooper is light comedian who adds a gift for footing-lt neatly; Joe Bettlson and Eve Witter give an original acrobatic-dance turn with a charming touch of the Arabian Nights atmosphere. Mervyn Rolando, the Royal Entertainer, entertains royally. And there is a surprise item, though, owing to some confusion in putting the numbers up, it would be risky to say which it was. But the show is surprisingly good, at any rate, and it should attract good audiences. There is a matinee to-day, entirely and exclusively for ladles, when Mervo will answer questions ...


ErikaH Report 20 Nov 2021 21:48

Both closed on FMP


ArgyllGran Report 20 Nov 2021 21:44

Just while looking to see if any of the theatre troupe were registered in Eastbourne in 1939:

Basil Cooper
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Basil Cooper
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 21 Jul 1888
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 20,
Residence Place: Bournemouth, Hampshire, England
Occupation: Stage Music Hall Artiste
Line Number: 13
Schedule Number: 182
Sub Schedule Number: 3
Enumeration District: EAAP
Borough: Bournemouth
Registration district: 94/1
Household Members Age
Frederick Hallewell 45 - watch & clock maker
Kate Hallewell 50 - boarding house proprietor
Basil Cooper 51
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
Dulcie V Watson 51 - unpaid domestic duties
James M S Watson 25 - insurance inspector

I wonder if the closed records are other stage performers.


ErikaH Report 20 Nov 2021 21:18

Missed the 1939 for the father - in a bit of a rush ;-) ;-)


ArgyllGran Report 20 Nov 2021 20:28

That's the couple I had also thought would be Howard's parents.

However, the transcription of the mother's probable death record on Ancestry just gives her birth as "abt 1922".

Her possible birth was registered in the first quarter of 1922, so could be late 1921 or early 1922.
Assuming this is the right woman, Howard does need to buy the certs for accurate info.

The father is on the 1939 Register, living in Hammersmith.


Kay???? Report 20 Nov 2021 20:22

Order by
Doc True

Was an Ensa entertainer pORMER professional dancer and contortionist, Mrs Eve Ship, of 137 Seaside, Eastbourne.
died in hospital on Thursday. She was 3$ and had been ill for two years. Mrs Ship was born in Manchester. Under the name of Eve Witter she appeared at the Hippodrome, Eastbourne, before the war and subsequently toured with Ensa. entertaining the troops. With
20 July 1957 - Eastbourne Herald - Eastbourne, Sussex, England

Doc True
a singer with a style of her own; Basil Cooper is light comedian who adds a gift for footing-lt neatly; Joe Bettlson and Eve Witter give an original acrobatic-dance turn with a charming touch of the Arabian Nights atmosphere. Mervyn Rolando, the Royal
20 September 1939 - Eastbourne Gazette - Eastbourne, Sussex, England


alviegal Report 20 Nov 2021 20:16

If I've identified the correct parents was your father born 4 Sept 1915?


malyon Report 20 Nov 2021 19:46

what was your mothers married name when did she die


ErikaH Report 20 Nov 2021 17:15

If I’ve identified the correct parents, neither is on 1939 register

Isn’t the mother’s DoB on her death registration?


ArgyllGran Report 20 Nov 2021 15:59

Welcome to the boards, Howard.

You'll have to buy copies of the certificates.

Order through the GRO site:


greyghost Report 20 Nov 2021 15:58

Welcome to the boards Howard.

When was your Mother born and when did she die? Depending on these dates, there may be records online.

If you'd like to give her name and details of the registrations you have found for her birth and death (presume this in a different name) we may be able to help you.


Howard Report 20 Nov 2021 15:50

I am trying to trace the exact dates of my mother's birth and death. I have found both of these on the 'search' but only to within three months. How do I get the actual dates?