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Hi Ozi

No, I'm fairly certain that it was Ellen that married twice, not her mother - that information was given by my mother (her grand daughter).

Is there a chance her mother remarried a Blackman?

Ozi.

Thanks Kathryn. Definitely worth looking me looking into those possibilities. Was so stuck going round in circles I didn't think to look into different spellings of the surname other than Ager.

Think you're right about not being any Blackman / Coleman marriages though. I haven't been able to find any either. Do you think that Coleman is likely to be her maiden name or Blackman? I thought Coleman from what is said on the birth certs, but then when I received the marriage cert and it said her name was Blackman and her father was Edward Blackman I got confused ;oP

Anyway, thanks again for these. I will have a look into them and will come back to you to let you know how I get on.

Ta x

Best match for a birth:

Name: Ellen Coleman
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Romford
County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 363


Blackman -- ? No apparent Coleman-Blackman marriage.

And for my next trick -- looking again at your George's children's names, and assuming a naming pattern:

Ellen Rose (1916) - her mother Ellen, his mother Rose

George Edward (1919) - his father George, her father Edward -- oh, you said her father was Edward ;)

-- and looking for an Ellen in Essex in1901 with parents Edward and Ellen:


Name: Ellen Coleman
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Edward
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Female
Where born: Barking, Essex, England

Civil Parish: Barking
Ecclesiastical parish: Barking St Margaret
Town: Barking
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: Romford
Sub-registration district: Barkingtown
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 22

Charles Coleman 14
Edward Coleman 47
Ellen Coleman 46
Ellen Coleman 11


Looks like a good candidate!

Death of father Henry in that family ... who may be complete red herrings. ;)


Name: Henry Haggar
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 46
District: Rochford
County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 303


So he died in the same quarter as his son George was born.


I wonder, though, whether the Henry George Haggar born in West Ham wasn't connected somehow.

Oops, in the 1901, that George was said to be born in Rochford, and there's one who matches perfectly:


Name: George Haggar
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Rochford
County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 527


Because the family apparently lived in West Ham, George might have understood that was where he was born.

On that theory --

Death of daughter Rose:

Name: Rose Hagger
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Year of Registration: 1882
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 1
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 228

Probably death of mother Rose:

Name: Rose Hagger
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Year of Registration: 1905
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 46
District: West Ham
County: Essex, Greater London
Volume: 4a
Page: 126

(if whoever reported didn't know she was as old as she was)

And likely death of daughter Prim:

Name: Rose Hagger
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Year of Registration: 1904
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 14
District: West Ham
County: Essex, Greater London
Volume: 4a
Page: 148

whose age seems to have been overestimated in 1901:

Name: Rose Haggar
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Companion
Gender: Female
Where born: Fulham, London, England

Civil Parish: Hockley
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Hockley
County/Island: Essex
Country: England


I think this is a not bad theory, myself!

And this might be the George Haggar/Hagger in question, whose father was Henry:


Name: Henry George Haggar
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: West Ham
County: Essex, Greater London
Volume: 4a
Page: 74

On that line, and looking at your George's daughter's name, in 1901:


Name: George Hagger
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Rose
Gender: Male
Where born: Rochford, Essex, England

Civil Parish: Hawkwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Hawkwell
Town: Essex
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: Rochford
Sub-registration district: Rochford
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 39

George Hagger 7
Rose Hagger 52


Rose was widowed; her husband was Henry in 1891 and 1881 -- in 1891 (not 1881 as I mistyped the first time) she and her daughter Rose, aged 5, are recorded as Prim. In 1881, they had a daughter Rose aged 7 mo, not present in 1891. Presumably her name was Primrose. ;)

George could have been born to older parents, the father died shortly after his birth, the mother not long after, and never actually known how to spell his name!

Just a theory. ;)

Echoing Kay's thought -- that he may well have been born to an unmarried mother and invented "George Agar" for the purpose of his marriage.

(My gr-grfather seems to have been born to a couple, although I'm not sure whether they were ever married, and then changed his surname and invented someone to be his father when he married. It wasn't uncommon for children of unmarried women to invent a father, or name their grandfather, when they married.)

Another thought: is it possible that the name got phoneticized, either by an enumerator or by the family themselves, and was actually, or was mistakenly recorded as, Hagger/Haggar?

Thank you! I will try and do some research into this and find out if it could possibly be the same person. Thanks again.

Don't know whether this was the one Kay was looking at --


Name: George Ager
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Emily
Gender: Male
Where born: Islington, London, England

Civil Parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Upper Holloway
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Household schedule number: 324

Ada Ager 5
Emily Ager 26
Emily Ager 5
Esther Ager 1
George Ager 29 - Railway Carman
George Ager 7
Reginald Ager 20
Joseph Booth 62 - father-in-law (fixed my mix-up there)

Could be Kay. I did start looking into the Agers as well in case the spelling had changed. Is that one on the records search on this website? If so, could you tell me which county, place or birth or civil parish so that I could get the details?

Thank you

He could be on the 1901as George AGER,,with father George,a railway worker,,age as 5 but parents often gave wrong age when few children were involved,,,,,,,,,plus his parents are young so maybe he was born in his mothers maiden name,,,,,,,,,,

Ellen's age on the cert for Jan 1916 is given as 24, and George's as 23. However, my mum said Ellen was much older than George and possibly made herself a little younger on the cert. Her grave stone says that she was born in 1887.

On Ellen Blackman?Coleman's marriage to Agar...what age is given?

Suzanne

His marriage cert is from 23rd Jan 1916, his age is 23, his dads name is George Agar also, and his and his dads occupation is fireman.

From the M/C what his age, dads name & dads occupation

I am researching George Edward Agar, but cannot trace his birth and so have only got so far as his marriage. The reason I can't trace his birth is that I am not sure it was registered - mum told me at one point he needed a birth cert and had none (my grandfather contacted various records office and did not manage to find anything) so had to swear in court - he told them he was born Oct 3rd 1891 at Custom House / West Ham. BUT, on his identity card his birth is scribbled as 1892 and on his marriage cert is 1892/1893.

Details I have so far: Married Ellen Blackman (or Coleman - see note below) March 1916 in Victoria Docks, West Ham. His father is on here as 'George'
Had 5 children all in Silvertown West Ham: Ellen Rose (1916) George Edward (1919), Edward (1921), Violet (1924), Harry Charles (1926).

He was also in ther Merchant Navy, but again, I can't seem to trace anything.

Similarly, on these birth certs, Ellen is called Ellen Agar, Late Blackman, Formerly Coleman. I thought that this would mean that her maiden name was Coleman, her name from her first marriage was Blackman. But then on her marriage certificate her name is given as Blackman, and her father's as Edward Blackman. I know that unusual things get put on the certificates, so am not 100% sure which is her maiden name and which is her surname?

I have used various websites such as GRO index, BMD, ancestry.co.uk and other specialist searches for West Ham records and Navy records. Have also tried to contact almost all Agars on here - with no luck.

Would be really really grateful if anyone could maybe suggest something else to try because it is starting to get very frustrating.

Thanks for your time

Zoe