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Hello, before christmas I asked if anyone could help with the family of my father-in-law James Snook. His mother was Victoria May Martin and I had been unable to trace her family. I have now found her parents marriage but am still unable to find any details on them or their children.

Their names James MARTIN born c1860 (place unknown) his father John Martin who was in the Royal Navy. Clarie Isabel GRANT born c1863 (place unknown) her father was Henry Grant and was a Messenger (I presume that means for the courts). They married 19/4/1884 in Registry Office St George Hanover Square London. James Martin was a Sergeant in the Army Hospital Corps and living at the Guards Hospital Rochester Row at the time they were married and Clarie was living in Parker Street, Westminster. I have been told by my father-in-law that he vaguely remembers Clarie working in one of the Royal Households but no idea where or who for and that James Martin had a full military funeral in Aldershot. I contacted the Army Medical Muesum in Aldershot but they hold no personal records.

James and Claries children included Bertha, Sidney, Jessie but their dob's are unknown. There is only one census for 1901 showing similar names but they just don't seem to fit.

Can anyone help with these names or let me know the best place to obtain records of James Martin whilst he was in the Army Hospital Corps. My father-in-law also thinks that James Martin may have moved up to Sergeant Major after he was married.

Many Thanks
Chris

Hi Christine. First, it is not a good idea to start a new thread about an old topic on which work has already been done.

You now also have an identical thread up about the other partner to this marriage:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=992355

It's reasonable to do that so that people looking at either the Grant or Martin surname "board" will see it -- but because people seeing the posts on the general board see them both, and they get separated on that board, there could be two people or two groups of people working on the same problem simultaneously. I have tagged the other thread to cross-reference to this one.

This is the old thread:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=981709

Here's one reason why new threads that don't reference the work already done are a bad idea.

The only birth in the GRO that matches your info for Clarie Grant is this one:


Name: Clari _AR_h Grant
Year of Registration: 1862
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Windsor
County: Berkshire, Surrey
Volume: 2c
Page: 56_

What it actually says is:

Clari Sarah Grant
2c 368

That matches your info -- name Clarie. Middle name different, but the birth cert might show an additional middle name.

It is also a pretty close match for the woman in the 1901 household that was posted in your old thread:


Name: Clarisse Martin
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Windsor, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: London


-- at least to the point that someone is undoubtedly going to find that record and offer it in this thread as a possibility for your Clarie -- when that has already been done and discussed.

This looks like the Clari Grant in question in 1881:


Name: Clara Grant
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Servant (householders: Cohen)
Gender: Female
Where born: Naddon, Berkshire, England (it's probably Maddox)

Civil Parish: Whitechapel
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 9 Mount St
Occupation: Serv Dom

Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Whitechapel Church


She could well be the Clarie who married your James Martin.

I just wouldn't be ruling out that 1901 household yet.

There are children's names that match some you have, and the Clari* matches the info you have about your Clarie.


Name: James Martin
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Clarisse
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: London
Country: England

Occupation: Railway Clerk

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Norwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Household schedule number: 180

Bertha Martin 1
Charles Martin 3
Clarisse Martin 34
Gertrude Martin 9
Henrietta Martin 11
James Martin 43
James Martin 7
Sydney Martin 5


This is that couple in 1891:
(edited -- I mistakenly reproduced the 1901 info the first time)


Name: James Martin
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Clarris B
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul Herne Hill
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Country: England

Occupation: Railway Baggage Registrar

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 42

Frederick Dalton 19
John Johnston 28
Alice H Martin 1
Clarris B Martin 28
(it looks like Clarria, and the B could be IS)
James Martin 31


If your James's residence at the time of marriage was a military hospital, he may well have left military service after that because of disability.

These may well not be your people, despite the many similarities. Best to show that they have been considered, though, so it doesn't get done all over again (as I have now done ...).

James' Army records, if they survive, should be at National Archives, Kew. Not online - you would have to go there, or get someone to go for you.

In 1871, this looks so much like the Clari Grant born in 1862 that it really has to be her:


Name: Clare Grant -- it says Clari Grant
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Alma Green, Berkshire, England

Civil Parish: Wanstead
Ecclesiastical parish: Rochester
Town: Wanstead
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Leyton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 3

Alice Grant 2
Cathrine Grant 5
Clare Grant 8
Robert Grant 34 -- occupation gardener
Sarah Grant 29


And that doesn't match with the father's name, Henry, on your marriage certificate.

But looking at the image, the Grants could be among a number of people working for a James Capel, stockbroker. The Capel household itself has various domestic servants, and is followed by two households headed by gardeners, and then another prosperous looking household. Perhaps the gardeners were independent and worked for various landowners in the area. That could fit with your info about working for a royal household.

I would still get the birth certificate for Clari Sarah Grant, 1862, to see what it says.

Is there any possibility that Henry Grant's occupation on the marriage licence is musician rather than messenger?


Name: Henry A Grant
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St George Hanover Square
Ecclesiastical parish: St Gabriel
County/Island: London
Country: England

Occupation: Musician
Condition as to marriage: Widowed


Or the "musician" on the census itself could be a misreading of "messenger".


This would fit with Clari in the household of Robert Grant -- father widowed young, reared by uncle.

The Martin couple above, in 1891 and 1901, were living in Lambeth.

This birth fits with both them and your info:


Name: May Victoria Martin
Year of Registration: 1901
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 520

Thank you Kathryn for both corecting me and your time and effort, I will definately look into all of these suggestions.

For Clarie the marriage certificate definately says father Henry Grant and occupation 'messenger'.

This really is a difficult one as Martin is not an unusual name. I am going to take a trip to Aldershot Library as someone suggested looking at the local newspapers for the death of James Martin. I have family there so it will not be a wasted journey but I wonder if you could let me know what else I could look for while I am there? What sort of things do libabries hold in the way of family history which may help. I am a bit of a newbie when it comes to searching outside the internet!

Thanks again and Regards Chris

I'm an oldie and useless for things off the internet ... being in Canada. ;)

Someone else may have advice on this -- or you could try contacting the library by email or phone before going, to see what sorts of things it does have. Good luck, and have fun!

Oh, and get that Clari Sarah Grant birth cert. ;)

Hi, you could try the National Army Museum in Aldershot too, and if it is not too far come across the border into the Berkshire Libraries as that features quite a lot on the info given. If you ask at Aldershot Library (give them a ring, they are usually more than able to at least point you in the right direction! for the information you require) Word of warning you will be charged to photocopy and you will not be able to take newspapers out of the library (I used to work for Berkshire Library Service, hence the above information) but you should be able to request Berkshire Papers to Aldershot Library if that makes life easier (although again at small cost, used to be 0.50p but I'm talking over 20 years ago!) having said that I still use the library!!
Hope that helps
Kaye (based in Berkshire about 15miles outside Aldershot!)

Thanks for the info Kaye I will keep you updated of my progress!