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In closing (for now) -- I meant to say: You prove my Monck descendancy, and I'll prove your Lansdowne!

I wouldn't trust the surname on that marriage certificate, Offell. Order it by the husband's name alone.

I considered this one in 1841, but the surname looks like Uphill on the image to me:


Name: Martha Offill
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Surrey, England

Civil Parish: St Mary Newington
Hundred: Brixton (Eastern Division)
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: St Mary Newington
Sub-registration district: St Peters

Elizabeth Offill 10
Martha Offill 20 (I'd go for her rather than Elizabeth)
Mary Offill 50
Thomas Offill 15
William Offill 70 - Pensioner
William Offill 25
Mary Pope 70

Hi to Lew & lulabelle,

Letting you both know that I have deleted my first 2 threads and thank you again for the info. The 3rd thread "Descendent of Lord & Lady Lansdowne" is still active.

Kind regards,
Susan

Marriages Sep 1864
Green Alfred Newington 1d 265
>> Offell Elizabeth Martha Newington 1d 265
>> Parker Robert James Newington 1d 265
Randall Jane Newington 1d 265


Elizabeth M and Robert J -- that is pretty certainly going to be Alice's parents, Margaret's maternal grandparents.

The Alice I identified was born shortly before that marriage.

Ah, I was still toiling as you were reading. Glad you're back. Do delete the other thread -- maybe send lulabelle a private message to tell her about the new one.

I doubt there's any way to prove or disprove your story. But the same route backward has to be taken to find your past generations, whether they were exalted or not, so you may as well get started! I mean, unless you don't want to know, if they weren't exalted. ;)

You can amuse yourself with my tale if you like, which is sort of buried in these two threads:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=976217
"Ernest Monck - Australia sojourn c 1885-1895"

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=954394
"JohnRogersCheshire/MaryEmmaHill 1860s-descendants"


I had in fact read your earlier thread, and it interested me, but lulabelle had found the initial info and until you responded there wasn't much point in pushing on.

Do get the certificates, and let us know!

So you need a marriage certificate:


Marriages Jun 1890
CARR John William Mile End 1c 807
PARKER Alice Mary A Mile End 1c 807


which looks extremely likely to be your Margaret's parents' marriage.


A birth certificate for Margaret would be really nice -- but there simply is no Margaret who matches your specs.

However, this is younger child Albert (whose age is 2 mo. in the 1901, not whatever it was transcribed as):

Name: Albert Carr
Year of Registration: 1901
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Poplar (To 1965)
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 685

And now sensibly checking the 1901 census, we note that while Margaret was living in Stepney, which matches your specs, she was born in Poplar. So:

Name: Margaret Carr
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Poplar (To 1965)
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 672

That is consistent with a mid-December 1898 birth.


So for starters, Margaret's birth cert and her parents' marriage cert.

That will give you Margaret's parents' names, and their fathers' names.

You could get the Alice Parker birth cert as well, since it seems a pretty sure bet.


And then report back and we shall go onward and backward! (as someone said on a board the other day, and I shall steal)

Hi Kathryn,
Many thanks for your help and shall find the info very useful. I apologise for the seemingly duplicated request, but this is the first time that I have used these message boards.

Kind regards,
Susan

Now the question becomes: which side of Alice's family is the Lansdowne connection supposed to be on?

Her parents in the 1881:

Name: Robert J. Parker
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Where born: Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, England

Name: Elizabeth M. Parker
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Where born: Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, England


But now our problem becomes that there is no Alice Parker with parents Robert and Elizabeth, born in Mile End Old Town c1864, in the 1871 census.

The sister in the other census was Lydia, not Sylva. But even searching for her we're just finding nothing.

What I'm wondering is whether the older children were from a previous marriage of Elizabeth.


Just can't find 'em. But there is a Robert in 1861 and 1871 with wife Sarah and a prosperous sounding farm who otherwise fits the profile for father Robert in 1881. I don't see him in 1881, but of course he could have died. (There's also a yeast dealer in 1871 who's similar, but he's a retired yeast dealer in 1881.)

So I would guess that this is her birth:

Name: Mary Ann Alice Parker
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Mile End Old Town
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 574

The use of a middle initial or initials very commonly indicated that the person was going by a middle name, with the first name(s) represented as middle initials.

1891:


Name: Alice M A Carr
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John - General Labourer
Gender: Female
Where born: Stratford, London, England

Civil Parish: Bromley
Ecclesiastical parish: All Hallows (Bow Common)
Town: Bromley
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 22


Back from that point there are just way, way too many Alice Parkers to make a guess at which one she would be. The marriage certificate, to get her father's name, is essential.

Well, heh, except that we do have those middle initials for a guide, so this might be an educated guess, in 1881:


Name: Alice M.A. Parker
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert J.
Mother's Name: Elizabeth M.
Gender: Female
Where born: Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 86 Shandy St

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 21

Alice M.A. Parker 16
Elizabeth M. Parker 58
George A. Parker 22
John W.M. Parker 24
Robert J. Parker 64 - Plumber
Sylva Parker 13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Lansdowne

There have of course been several Lord Lansdownes.

(I have just the same problem. I can never remember whether it was my gr-grfather or his father who was the offspring of a black sheep younger brother of a Viscount Monck, and thus which Viscount Monck it was.)

I'm not in England, so I don't know which one is most likely to have been referred to at the time in question as "Lord Lansdowne" -- perhaps the one who was PM from 1782 to 1783? They were all rather prominent. The one I'm familiar with was Governor General of Canada from 1883 to 1888, a little after the Viscount Monck was.

I have a shot at proof -- we have a son of a son of a son (of a son) who could have his DNA compared.

You, sadly, don't -- you have two generations of female ancestors right smack in the middle of the line that would come from the Lord.

What you could do, though, is take the Alice Parker you now have info about and run backwards with it, and see where it takes you.

Since members of the nobility who left illegitimate children floating around didn't generally keep and leave records of them, that line of inquiry is unlikely to get either of us anywhere.

If your Alice Parker was in fact a descendant of the Lord in the ordinary way, from marriage to marriage on down, you might be able to connect the dots.

Susan, you were offered information in your previous thread.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=993832

Did you not bother to read it? Did you not like it?

Someone is going to come along here and do exactly the same work as was kindly done by lulabelle in the other thread, because s/he won't have seen it, and will go looking for background info to your question. This is one reason why the guidelines state that more than one topic should not be submitted twice. (And it turns out that Lew had also done it.)

I will reproduce what lulabelle put in the previous thread, and then that thread should be deleted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

poss 1901 census and marriage?


Name: Margaret Carr
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Female
Where born: Poplar, London, England

Civil Parish: Poplar
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Household schedule number: 286

Albert Carr 2 8 months
Alice Carr 38
Alice E Carr 10
John Carr 42
John Carr 8
Louis Carr 5
Margaret Carr 2


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1890

CARR John William Mile End 1c 807
Free Judith Mile End 1c 807
PARKER Alice Mary A Mile End 1c 807
Robert James Henry Mile End 1c 807
Roberts James Henry Mile End 1c 807

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it seems that now you *do* know her mother's name. Unless that was just some bunch of unrelated but strangely identical people that lulabelle found.

My maternal grandmother Margaret Ellen Carr was born in Stepney, E. London on 18/12/1898. She had two sisters who I knew: Alice (who was older) and Sara (aka Lizzie) (who was younger). She also had some brothers who I know nothing of.

Her mother's maiden name was Parker. Do not know her first name, or where and when she was born (probably in the 1860's-1870's). Apparently my grandmother (Margaret) and her sisters were told by their mother that "you will never want for anything" and that she (Parker) was a descendent of Lord & Lady Lansdowne.

However as a young woman my grandmother was put in the work-houses; developed pneumonia at the age of 18; married my grandad William Hull (born 1898, South Weald) in approx 1924 and lived in a 2up-2down in Brentwood, then in a council flat in Warley. Now this information is what my mum told me and don't know how true it is, but she believes it to be correct.

Is there any way of checking out the connection (if any) to the Lansdownes?

Kind regards,
Susan Robertson