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Hi, another mystery!!!!
Mary williams unmarried b1789.
in 1851 she was living at london street st pancras.
My great great grandma was a servant, frances c cope. b 1831.
I seem to have a sarah collin somewhere.i think she was married to william todd(sometimes transcribed as "codd")in 1852. this sarah is connected somewhere to mary williams.
please HELP im totally confused
regards jane

thankyou for your help, youve given me lots to keep me going,
best wishes
jane

For info:-

1851 census transcription details for: 13, London Street, Saint Pancras, Marylebone
National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107 Piece: 1494 Folio: 375 Page: 10

Reg. District: Saint Pancras Sub District: Tottenham
Parish: Saint Pancras Enum. District: 7
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough: Marylebone
Address: 13, London Street, Saint Pancras, Marylebone
County: Middlesex
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
WILLIAMS, Mary M Head Unmarried F 62 1789 Fundholder
London
COPE, Frances C Servant Unmarried F 20 1831 Housemaid
St Pancras
Middlesex
HARDING, Elizabeth M Servant Unmarried F 19 1832 Cook
Westminster


1841 census transcription details for: London Street, St Pancras, Marylebone
National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107 Piece: 686 Book/Folio: 7/7 Page: 8

Reg. District: St Pancras Sub District: Tottenham
Parish: St Pancras Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough: Marylebone
Address: London Street, St Pancras, Marylebone
County: Middlesex
Name Relation Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
DICKSON, Thomas M 35 1806 Scotland
DICKSON, Margaret F 35 1806 Scotland
DICKSON, Thomas M 7 1834 Middlesex
DICKSON, Mary F 5 1836 Middlesex
OVENSTAN, John M 0 (2 months) 1841 Middlesex
WILLIAMS, Mary F 52 1789 Ind Middlesex
GOLLEDGE, Ann F 15 1826 Middlesex
GUSTERSON, Harriett F 20 1821

All but one - if not all - of those Mary Williams births are completely irrelevant! They're all easily found on a search of the IGI

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/igi/search_igi.asp


The date of birth in the 1851 census is approximate at best (more likely to be born 1878 -- edit: I meant 1788 of course -- after the census date) and incorrect at worst.

It does say she was born in London, and that may or may not be correct.


Why do you think Frances Cope was connected with Mary Williams other than as her domestic servant?


What makes you think there is a connection between Sarah Collin and Mary Williams?


One kind of needs a crystal ball to figure this out. It would help if you would explain how you figured out that these people are connected!

im wondering if william cope married a sarah collins, and why frances is stated as single when she was supposed to be married to william todd.
i cant find their marriage, is it possible they faked it? did they do that sort of thing back then. I wish i had a crystal ball then all would be revealed
thanks anyway, best wishes
jane

Yes, confused.

You originally said:

"My great great grandma was a servant, frances c cope. b 1831.
I seem to have a sarah collin somewhere.i think she was married to william todd(sometimes transcribed as "codd")in 1852. this sarah is connected somewhere to mary williams."

Well, I took that "she" to be Sarah Collin. "I think Sarah Collin was married to William Todd."

Now you're saying it's Frances Cope was married to William Todd? --

"why frances is stated as single when she was supposed to be married to william todd."

FreeBMD shows no Frances Cope + William Todd marriage. Who supposes that they were married? Oh - she's your grx2 grandmother, so you know this? ;)

There are two Frances C Cope marriages, neither to a William Todd:

Marriages Jun 1855
COPE Frances Camilla Newcastle T 10b 92
Marriages Dec 1858
Cope Frances Charlotte Greenwich 1d 836

When and where did your Frances marry? I can't find any such marriage. Also can't find a William and Frances Todd in 1861.


"im wondering if william cope married a sarah collins"

I'm lost. When? Where? There is one couple with those names, Bromley 1886, not likely them I assume ... but this is the first you've mentioned them. Also: Collin or Collins?

It really is impossible to try to search for you without some information.

Could you give all the info you have? Dates of birth in particular.


"i cant find their marriage, is it possible they faked it? did they do that sort of thing back then."

All the time. Usually, if one spouse was already married. Divorce wasn't accessible, and people had all kinds of reasons for separating, including cruelty. We often forget, I think, that a woman and her children may have had good reason for leaving home, and it would be very hard for a woman as a single parent.


Tell us what you know about these people, and it may be possible to find something. As it stands, it just isn't possible.

sorry to confuse you, join the club
my family is very complex. thank you for your input. more research needed. best wishes
jane

SORRY ABOUT THE CONFUSION, HERES WHAT I HAVE
THE BIRTH CERT OF CATHERINE STATED DAD AS WILLIAM TODD AND MUM FRANCES TODD NEE COPE.
NO TRACE OF MARRIAGE SO I EXPECT THEY FAKED IT, HOWEVER I DO HAVE THE MARRIAGE CERT OF FRANCES COPE/TODD AS A SPINSTER MARRYING JOSEPH BARKAS IN NEWCASTLE IN 1852.
ON THE 1861 CENSUS, FRANCES AND JOSEPH ARE LOOKING AFTER A BABY MARY ANN TODD BORN PADDINGTON. NO SIGN OF CATHERINE ON THAT CENSUS. SO FRANCES MUST BE RELATED IN SOME WAY TO THE TODD/
ON THE 1881 CENSUS I HAVE A WILLIAM TODD A WIDOWER WITH A DAUGHTER MARY ANN BORN 1860#
ON MY TREE I HAD A NOTIFICATION OF A MARRIAGE BETWEEN WILLIAM TODD AND SARAH COLLINS IN 1851.
JUST THOUGHT IF YOUR BORED???????????
HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU
JANE

Jane, what came over you to start shouting in capital letters? It's impossible to read ...

There's no Joseph Barkas marriage in 1852. No Frances marriage to Barkas 1850-1855 ...

What does Frances Cope/Todd mean? Did she marry as Cope or Todd?


Want to check the info?

Ah yes, I did see this before


Marriages Jun 1855
BARKASS Joseph Coxon Newcastle T 10b 92
COPE Frances Camilla Newcastle T 10b 92 S
HALL Joseph Newcastle T 10b 92
WATSON Elizabeth Newcastle T 10b 92


BARKASS, not Barkas.
1855, not 1852.

You need to be sure your info is correct before you start others searching. This one might not make a huge difference, but reliable info matters generally.

1861

Name: Mary Todd
Age: 8 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Nurse Child (Nurse)
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England - doesn't say Paddington

Civil parish: St Pancras

Joseph Barkas 33 - born Newcastle
Frances Barkas 29 - born City, Middlesex
Mary Todd 8 Mo


So William Todd and Frances Cope were not married. It would seem that Frances was using his name and purported to be married to him when she registered Mary Ann Todd's birth. [Oops, I'm still not making sense of it. The child was Catherine Todd.]

She was already married to Joseph Barkas. It looks like a temporary estrangement ... . *If* this is all the same Frances.

"THE BIRTH CERT OF CATHERINE STATED DAD AS WILLIAM TODD AND MUM FRANCES TODD NEE COPE"

Where has Catherine come from? This seems to be the first mention of her. We know nothing of when or where she was born, for starters, and I have no idea what she has to do with this.


Is the idea that Catherine is Mary Ann Todd in the 1861?


Births Dec 1860
TODD Catherine Ord Gateshead 10a 489
Births Mar 1861
TODD Catherine Newcastle T 10b 46
- this one is with parents George and Christiana in 1861 in Newcastle.

???

Who is Catherine Todd???

I still don't know what I'm looking for, but this looks significant:


Births Dec 1859
TODD Mary Ann **Collin** Marylebone 1a 433


Mary Ann, child of William Todd and Sarah Collin, being fostered by Frances Cope and Joseph Barkass in 1861?


"ON THE 1881 CENSUS I HAVE A WILLIAM TODD A WIDOWER WITH A DAUGHTER MARY ANN BORN 1860"

William Todd 52 - widowed, born St Andrew c1829, carpenter
Mary A. Todd 21 - born St Andrew c1860, Clerkenwell, tin foil maker

Civil parish: St Andrew
Registration district: Holborn


Births Mar 1861
TODD Mary Ann Holborn 1b 509
?

Haven't been able to identify that William in a previous census.

hi, im knocking this one on the head for now. i will do more research, thank you so much for your help. gets the old brain cells working!!!!!!
regards jane
all the best for christmas

Y'know, Jane, if you ever did answer any of the glaring questions here, and give a slightly comprehensible account of who these people are, we might get somewhere! But you haven't, and you haven't given your thoughts about what I suggested above, so I'm gonna have to give up ... not that I ever really knew what I was looking for ... much as I hate to do that!