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This one has had me totally log-jammed for three years and I'm desperate to make a breakthrough.

My family name (Young) is rock solid back to the marriage of WILLIAM YOUNG in 1884 but I can't go back any further and would really, really, really appreciate some help (feel my desperation !!!).

Marriage Certificate details are ..........

Place: St Saviours Church, Paddington, Middlesex
Date: 12/05/1884
Names: William Young & Sarah Ann Duffin
Ages: William - 27 years, Sarah - 26 years
Occupation: William - Labourer
Address: William - 17 Shirland Road
Father: William - Edward Young
Father's Occupation: Labourer
Witnesses: Sarah Anne Young & Joseph Reed

I can find no pre-1884 census return linking a William with a father named Edward.

There is a 4 year old William on the 1861 census with a visitor called Rebecca Young who shows as a widow b.1821 Yorkshire. There was also an Edward William Young who died 1860 in Westminster - but I can find no marriage of Edward & Rebecca and wouldn't edward show as "Deceased" on the marriage certificate ?

The only Rebecca Young that fits the data appears to be in County Durham and married to a Thomas AND appears on the 1861 census at home ...... could she be on the census twice ? This Rebecca does have a daughter called Sarah Anne Young too so fits with the witness on the marriage certificate.

Other clues might be that on all census returns after his marriage, William named his place of birth as "London" or "London, Middlesex". He never gave any specific place which is unusual. I believe he was a servant at the time of his marriage - his wife Sarah definitely was and I think they met locally as servants.

Anyway, all very frustrating and I would really appreciate any help and/or advice on this one.

First, I second what David said, lol.

I can't see your William in 1891, but here they are in 1901, just for info/ref:


Name: William Young
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah A
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England

Civil Parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Aidan
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Aston
Sub registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Household schedule number: 160

Household Members:
Name Age
Arthur Young 12 - Birmingham
Charles Young 7 - Birmingham
Harry Young 14 - Birmingham
Sarah A Young 46 - Besley, Worcestershire, England
William Young 45
William Young 15 - Birmingham


Another common possibility is that William is hiding in earlier censuses under a stepfather's surname.

The father's name given on marriage, in that situation, can sometimes be a combination of real father's given name and stepfather's surname, or vice versa.

Here they are in 1891, found by searching for son Arthur:


Name: W Young
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Civil Parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Bordesley
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Aston
Sub registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel: 53

Household Members:
Name Age
Wm J Perry 6 (boarder)
Arthur Young 1
Harry Young 4
Sarah Young 34 (born B?? - it could say B'ham)
W Young 34
Wm Young 6

Thanks for the info but I'm quite happy with everything post-1884, it's just before then !!!

I have looked for a Joseph Reed (and Read) and there are several in the area but nothing obviously linking them with William.

I know William is listed as a labourer but assumed that was quite a general term covering many things. His stated address at Shirland Road was, and still is, a very posh residence and was not held in the Young name ...... he must have been some sort of "domestic" there (gardener maybe ?).

Sarah's address is also a nice house and very near to William's.

Here's an interesting fellow in 1881 -- I am not seeing a death for wife Louisa, though:

Name: W. H. Young
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
** Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 4 Addington St
Condition as to marriage: Married
** Occupation: Servant Domestic

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Waterloo Road Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 3

Household Members:
Name Age
James Young
Louisa Young 24
W. H. Young 25

I understand that you're happy with it, Paul.

Anybody who is not familiar with the family has to have complete info though, because there can be hints in later records that can be used to search in earlier records. That is why I said "for information / reference".

For instance, the fact that he was recorded as "Wm" in a later census (Ancestry has mistakenly transcribed it as "W").

You might want to make an entry on that census record adding the name William, and indicating that you are looking for further information about him. I have done that in the past and had some excellent results, in the form of contacts from distant cousins. One provided me with a load of ancestors I would never have found, and I did the same for the other, lol.

The dratted thing about Shirland Road -- Ancestry must have mistranscribed it rather badly in 1881, because I am unable to find any census records for it. I tried Shir* and Sher*, but to no avail. It would have been nice to see what the household was in 1881 for the address he gave in 1884.

Have you ever managed to find it?

Paul,
If it is any consolation, I am also hitting a proverbial brick wall with the YOUNG family - and have done since the start.
My issue is more related to descendants and living relatives. The fact that the Youngs are the adoptive family (adopted my grandmother) makes it even a little harder to get concrete information as there is no-one to ask - grandparents and Gt Grandparents are not alive !!
Feel my frustration - lol - that is what makes this research so much fun and gives a huge sense of achievement when you finally crack it open.

Reagrds,
Eric
Melbourne Australia

Here is a William Young in 1881 who is living quite close to Shirland Road:


Name: William Young
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Chelsea
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 2 Church Street
Occupation: Plasterers Laborer

Registration district: Chelsea
Sub registration district: Chelsea, South
ED, institution, or vessel: 5


... just looking for points of commonality.

I assume you are the lucky so-and-so with this ancestor:

Births Jun 1856 (98%)
Duffin Sarah Ann
district: *
vol: *
page: [5_]11

It actually says district Alcester, so that must be her.

Where was she in 1881?

Here:

Name: Sarah A. Duffin
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Cook
Gender: Female
Where born: Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish: Sutton Coldfield
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street address: Wylde Green
Occupation: Domestic Serv

Registration district: Aston
Sub registration district: Sutton Coldfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 1

One more interesting bit of stuff, and then I will wash my hands!

Here is a stepfather situation in 1881 -- the problem is that the age is consistently a little younger than your William. It's always possible that he adjusted it to make himself older than his bride.


Name: William Young
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Step Son
Mother's Name: Sarah Woods
Gender: Male
Where born: Stepney, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Aveley
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street address: Main Street Ship Lane
** Occupation: Labr On Chalk Works

Registration district: Orsett
Sub registration district: Grays
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Household Members:
Name Age
William Peice 60
James Price 5
John Thomas Price 7
** Sarah Woods Price 48
William Young 22

Name: Sarah Woods Price
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: Avely, Essex, England

Sarah was previously Young. I don't know where the Woods came from ... yet. ... Ah. It was a middle name.

Marriages Sep 1872
BURRELL Jane Romford 4a 178
Jeffs Richard Romford 4a 178
** Price William Romford 4a 178
** YOUNG Sarah Woods Romford 4a 178

This William Young could have been born to the unmarried Sarah Young, and his father's given name was Edward.


In 1871:

Name: William Young
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Stepney, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Aveley
Ecclesiastical parish: Rochester
Town: Aveley
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Orsett
Sub registration district: Grays
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 71

Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Locke 69
Sarah Young 39 - niece
William Young 12 - nephew


In 1861:

Name: Sarah Georg
[Sarah Young]
-- and here's the good part: someone has corrected the mistranscription of "Young" and says she is researching the family. So this possibility could easily be ruled out, if that is the case.
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Avely, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Aveley
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Orsett
Sub registration district: Grays
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 192

Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Ann Georg 33 (also Young)
Sarah Georg 30
Ann Pepper 22
Elizabeth Pepper 2 Mo
James Pepper 26


Now, where is that William in 1861? That I haven't found yet.

He's a possibility, but only that!

The only William Young born in Stepney 1854-1860:

Births Mar 1855
Young William Stepney 1c 4[79]2

It might be interesting to have a look at him.

In 1841 also Sarah and her sister are with their aunt Sarah Lock in Avely, Essex:

Sarah Lock 30
Mary Ann Young 13
Sarah Young 9


The only William in 1861 who seems to fit the bill is your William with Rebecca Young! The census image says 21 months, not 2 months, I'd say. That puts him about June quarter 1859, and there were several WYs born in London/Middlesex in that quarter.

Great stuff there and please don't "wash your hands" too soon as you've uncovered a load of interesting stuff here ...... please keep going !!!

His wife Sarah is great fun to track too ..... she was born Elizabeth and then used the name Sarah in the middle part of her life before changing back to Elizabeth after William died !!!

17 Shirland Road in 1881

Sophia Baker
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Hatfield, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Paddington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 17 Shirland Rd
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: Domestic Servant

Registration district: Kensington
Sub registration district: St Mary Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Sophia Baker 35
Adaline A. Nathan 23
Alice Nathan 30
Mary Nathan 27
Katie Pearman 15

View
Original
Record

View original image

( Searched on London Paddington Shirlan* )

Sarah Young's father could have been a William. A William Young died in Orsett district in 1837, for instance.

Edwards who are potential fathers are scarce on the ground in that vicinity. This is the only candidate I see; he is in Grays Thurrock in 1841 (parents Catherine and Patrick), and here he is in 1861:

Name: Edward White
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Brother-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Aveley, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Grays Thurrock
Town: Grays
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Occupation: Brick-maker
Condition as to marriage: Unmarried
Registration district: Orsett
Sub registration district: Grays
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 299

Household Members:
Name Age
Alice Lightfoot 6
Caroline Whiffins 38
Elizabeth Whiffins 11
James Whiffins 6
Mary A Whiffins 8
Sarah Whiffins 4
William Whiffins 39
William Whiffins 15
Catherine White 65 - mother-in-law of head of household, born in Ireland
Edward White 35
John White 1 - apparently son of Sarah
Sarah White 18 - unmarried


I can't find him after that.


Why that Essex Sarah's son William was born in Stepney - ? Maybe she was working there, met a Stepney Edward, returned home once she had the child. Maybe, as was the case for my great-grandmother, a domestic servant two generations later, her son's father was her employer. ...

Who your William Young was ... well, I spent 3 years trying to unravel one of my weird ancestors, and I have pretty much done it, so all I can say is: where there's life, there's hope!

Aargh, Julie -- *I* did exactly that and I got nothing! What wand did you wave??

(Edit - I have no idea what I was doing wrong, but I found Shirland Road easily this time, and just for good measure got the whole list, in case he was a lodger in a separate household or something, but no Young. There's a household at 64 transcribed as Yening, which I would not concur in, but I don't think it's Young and there's no William.)

So no joy there ...


Paul: if you want to wind me up and point me anywhere you find of particular interest in any of that, go ahead, lol.

Paul, you're spreading bits and pieces of this one around -- this and another on Tips:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1103425

Getting back to first principles -- Rebecca seems to appear twice in 1861. This is the Durham household in 1851:

Abraham Young 7
Frederick Young 3
Henry Thomas Young 9 Mo
Joseph Young 5
Rebecca Young 30
Thomas Young 32

and 1861:

Frederick Young 13
Henry Thos Young 10
Joseph Briggs Young 15
Rebecca Young 40
Sarah Ann Young 8
Thomas Young 42


Query -- if William was her son, and she was enumerated in Durham, why wasn't he??

Even your possible red herrings have tangles, lol.

Marriages Mar 1843
BRIGGS Rebecca Howden 23 73
YOUNG Thomas Howden 23 73

There's a lot to take in from this thread and I haven't had chance to do that yet but I'm very grateful as there is more here than has been uncovered by "experts" I've paid to help me !

Prior to looking at all this, I was looking at certain pieces of data as potentially more important than others (in no order of importance) .......

Despite what was suggested above, the consistant citing of his birthplace as "London" or "London, Middlesex" is unusual. I've looked at a LOT of census records and I would say that less than 1% of Londoners fail to quote a specific area. May imply he doesn't know where he was born but, of greater significance, it may help to pick him out on early census returns where others HAVE stated a specific location.

The Sarah ANNE Young on the marriage certificate appears to be a definite Anne with an "e" rather than just the way it was spelt by the person who wrote it as Sarah ANN Duffin is clearly spelt without an "e" on the same certificate.

William has consistantly given his year of birth as 1857 and whilst I accept that you have to be prepared to look either side, he certainly seems to have no doubt that was his year of birth. With that in mind, the only "solid" four year old William on the 1861 census was the one with "visitor" Rebecca (b1821 Yorkshire). This William also cites his birthplace as "London".

Rebecca looks interesting but doesn't appear either before or after the 1861 census unless she is the one married to Thomas in Durham and who appears on the 1861 twice therefore. Both Rebeccas match on year of birth, area of birth, Thomas is a tailor and she is visiting as a bootbinder and rebecca has a daughter called Sarah ANNE Young but ...... where has London born William come from and why does she show as a Widow at the London address but clearly alive and kicking up in Durham ? Is William related but not hers ?

There are "London" born c.1857 Williams on the 1871 census either as domestic servants or in Common Lodging Houses. There are also "London" born c.1857 Williams on the 1881 census in similar domestic employment and/or in Common Lodging Houses. These could be him ...... without parents.

Appreciate continued help on this one. I'm certain somebody out there has the skills and experience to piece this together ...... there are enough pieces to play with !!!