Genealogy Chat

My hubby's grandfather who was born 1883 North Kensington, London, England died 1941 Paddington, New South Wales.

I sent away for his Birth certificate and it came back "father unknown". Mother was Matilda Breedon as was her mother. He had taken his mothers maiden name.

Hubby has had his DNA just recently done and I was wondering how one goes about somehow of finding a link to the "unknown Father".

Thanks

Sometimes a mum sought child support and a bastardy order was raised

If nothing on line then it's unlikely the fathers name can be found

Is this the birth

BREEDON, WALTER CHARLES -
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 85

Edit not seeing anything online

Matilda seems to have been a live in servant in 1881

OView 1881 England Census
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Name: Matilda Breedon
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relationship to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Mary
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: The Yews Hoe St
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: General Serv
Registration district: West Ham
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1730
Folio: 75
Page Number: 37
Household Members:
Name Age
William G. Cluff 55
Louisa H. Cluff 54
Florence P. Cluff 21
Elsie M. Cluff 16
Matilda Breedon 18

He Living with mum and her family in 1891

Charles Breedon
Gender: Male
Age: 8
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1883
Mother: Matilda Breedon
Birth Place: Kensington, London, England
Civil Parish: Kensington
Residence Place: Kensington, London, England
Sub registration district: Kensington Town
ED, Institution or Vessel: 49a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 27
Folio: 136
Household Members:
Name Age
Matilda Breedon 57
Matilda Breedon 28
Edward F Breedon 21
Frank Breedon 19
Walter Breedon 16
Charles Breedon 8


Living with grandmother and uncle in 1901
Charles Breadon
[Charles Walter Breedon]
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Grandson
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Kensington, London, England
Civil Parish: Kensington
Search Photos: Search for 'Kensington' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch Notting Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Kensington Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 77
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 32
Folio: 131
Page Number: 8
Household schedule number: 72
Household Members:
Name Age
Matilda Breadon 68
Frank Breadon 29
Charles Breadon 18

So switched his name around

Married by 1911 ??

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Name: Charles Walter Breedon
Age in 1911: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: North Kensington, London, England
Civil Parish: Teddington
Search Photos: Search for 'Teddington' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: 42 Gomer Gardens, Teddington
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Motor Driver Domestic
Registration district: Kingston
Registration District Number: 40
Sub-registration district: Hampton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 359
Piece: 3570
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Walter Breedon 28
Annie Breedon 26
Charles Walter Breedon 6
Violet Ethel Breedon 3
Gladys May Breedon 2
Rose Matilda Breedon 10/12
Married 7 years 5 children born 4 still living

The child that died
BREEDON, ANNIE BATTEN
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 110
BREEDON, ANNIE 0
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 133


BREEDON, ROSE MATILDA BATTEN
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 501


So the marriage

Marriages Jun 1904
BATTEN Annie Kensington 1a 448
Breedon Walter Kensington 1a 448

Think the informant was assuming

Charles Walter Breedon
in the Australia, Death Index, 1787-1985
Australia, Death Index, 1787-1985 No Image
Text-only collection
Name: Charles Walter Breedon
Death Date: 1941
Death Place: New South Wales
Father's name: Charles
Mother's name: Matilda
Registration Year: 1941
Registration Place: Paddington, New South Wales
Registration Number: 6828

Matilda seems to have married
1901 census
Matilda Yeatman
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: William Yeatman
Birth Place: Marylebone
Civil Parish: Hammersmith
Search Photos: Search for 'Hammersmith' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: South Hammersmith (including Starch Green)
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 46
Folio: 112
Page Number: 37
Household schedule number: 255
Household Members:
Name Age
William Yeatman 34
Matilda Yeatman 34
Maud Yeatman 11

However the marrige was later !!

Marriages Jun 1907
BREEDON Matilda Elizabeth Kensington 1a 367
YEATMAN William Charles Kensington 1a 367

1911 census


Name: Matilda Yeatman
Age in 1911: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Civil Parish: Kensington
Search Photos: Search for 'Kensington' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 44 Swinbrook Road, Westbourne Park, North Kensington
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 4
Estimated Marriage Year: 1907
Registration district: Kensington
Registration District Number: 2
Sub-registration district: Kensington North
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Piece: 183
Household Members:
Name Age
William Yeatman 42
Matilda Yeatman 46
Married 4 years no children

She went on her own
View UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
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Name: Matilda Yeatman
Gender: Female
Age: 47
Birth Date: abt 1866
Departure Date: 18 Jul 1913
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Orontes
Search Ship Database: Search for the Orontes in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line: Orient Line
Occ dressmaker

I think Cindy is wondering how to find the father through the DNA result.

Googling produces many results about finding parents via DNA - eg -

https://www.dna-testing-adviser.com/Tracing-Birth-Parents.html

https://www.dna-testing-adviser.com/Find-Birth-Parents.html

http://thednageek.com/getting-started-in-an-unknown-parentage-search/

This one's about finding a grandparent - but a bit vague!

https://tinyurl.com/ycglbmuj

That person's search seems to have succeeded via a cousin.

Not all DNA results give such close relationships - maybe it depends which company did the testing and what sort of breakdown the company gives you
.
My brother recently had his DNA tested by 23andMe. Although interesting in a very general way, it would have been no use for finding a parent or grandparent, if we had hoped to do that.
The results included a list of names of related people - but only from people who had also had DNA tests by 23andMe. Those people were only fourth cousins or even more distant - nobody closer had applied to 23andMe, apparently.

None of the dozens of names on the list meant anything to us, from our tree. Of course, the youngest people on our tree are our children, so most of the names on the tree are from previous generations, whereas the people who've had their DNA tested are still living (the vast majority in the USA) , and we can't tell who they might be descended from in our tree (almost entirely British) - four or more generations ago.

The surname of only one person among hundreds on the list features in our tree, a couple of generations ago - but it's not an unusual name.

Is this anything to do with your family. Found on Ancestry.

The marriage of Violet Ethel Breedon and Charles Walter Breedon

in the Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011



Marriage 21st June 1930*************

Father Name: Charles Walter Breedon Father Motor mechanic
Gender: Male
Mother Spouse: Annie Battern
Child: Violet Ethel Breedon born London
Spouse Hector William Harding a Composiitor born Wallendbeen?
Fathers name Albert Edward Harding a Retired Public Servant
Mother Emily Jane Crew Deceased.

Yes I know the question was DNA but I was looking for records to see if anything came up

I posted what came up as a reference for further searches

The poster may well have some or all or it but it may also be info not already known

No criticism intended, Shirley.
I agree, you never know what might turn out to be a valuable clue.

I would look for a baptism.

Some vicars were keen to name the father of an illegitimate child.

This might provide a name, so that possible DNA checks could be made for his descendants.

I would upload his RAW DNA to multiple sites.

My DNA results came through 2 weeks ago via Ancestry and I uploaded my Raw DNA to Gedmatch a few days later.

It has totally freaked me out!
Without going into the fine detail, I realised that so many of my matches were all descendants of different children, born to ONE couple.

I didn't recognise anything.
I started a study tree to find how I share DNA with these people.
I found loads more children and followed them through marriages etc.
The more I added, the more shared matches appeared

Most of my shared matches are great great grandchildren of the ONE couple but, one close match was a great grandchild ( deceased since DNA test)
I share a lot of DNA with this person.

The penny still hadn't dropped until about 4 days ago....

There is no father listed on my mum's birth cert.
He has never been discussed in the family and although I am experienced in researching my family history, it never actually occurred to me that she had a biological father with ancestors of his own.
I never gave him or his identity a thought

This ONE couple must be be my un named grandfather's grandparents or great grandparents
If so, which child was his own parent/ grandparent.?

By process of elimination ( emigration etc) I have narrowed it down to one of 2 daughters and looked at their marriages and children.
One daughter and her grandson got my attention.
I now recognised something.
Not a name but, the place.
This branch had since moved to my mum's home town.

This man and my grandmother were the same age
They would have known each other.
They would definitely have gone to school together.
Right place. Right time.

This man married just weeks before my mum was born.

I uploaded my RAW DNA to My Heritage on Monday

Up popped my CLOSEST DNA match to date....
The great grand child of this very man and GGGG Grandchild of the ONE couple.. Yikes !!
Obviously, I still don't know for certain.

I also need to try and locate this man's cousin who I can't find after his birth.
He is the only other person in this massive family with the potential to be my mum's father

One thing I would ask is what DNA test he did.

If it was autosomal (the test that Ancestry offers), it could turn up cousins (and the question is then to sort out which of your husband's side the cousins are on, for starters).

For looking for a male ancestor particularly, the male-line DNA -- Y-DNA -- is the most accurate way to trace.

Is your husband's parent who was Charles's child your husband's father or mother?

If he is the son of the son of Charles, he has a direct YDNA line back to Charles's father.

If he is the son of the daughter of Charles, did Charles have a son who is living or who has a male descendant who would test?

A YDNA test might not find someone with a common ancestor as close as Charles's father, but it could give an indication of the surname -- say if someone matched whose match showed that the common ancestor was more likely Charles's great grandfather. Assuming that there were no "non-paternal events" in that person's line (i.e. that the surname was passed from father to son in each generation, unlike Charles's own), then it would give you a surname to investigate. I use Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) for this test.

Charles's names could also provide a clue. It's possible that he knew who his father was, and the father was actually named Charles, and Charles was named for him. Do the names Charles and Walter figure in Matilda's family?

(edit - see post below - I remember now: yes, they do.)

One other thing is to check his English marriage certificate. If he named a father, the name could have been made up but you never know.

(edit - see post below - you do have that certificate: "Dad was Charles Breedon (deceased)", oh well!)



GlasgowLass, that is quite the story, and quite the outcome! I agree with all your advice, of course. :-)

Okay, here's a funny coincidence. The name Breedon rang a bell for me. You and I were in touch back in 2007, back when I thought I had a Batten in my tree. (It turned out I had fixed on the wrong mother for my greatx2 grandmother in Cornwall, so no Batten for me after all.) I have that Breedon-Batten 1904 marriage in our emails. And I gave you all the census and BMD info in this thread ... and you did get his birth certificate back then. :-)

Dang, how time flies ...

(You won't recognize me from my board name here -- I keep my personal info private!)

And I see that your husband's Breedon parent was indeed his father.

So your husband can do the YDNA test, and if he hasn't, I do recommend it!

FTDNA has surname projects, and the project administrators (who are just other members, kind of like here) are often very helpful. If your husband gets YDNA matches with a particular surname showing up, he can join that surname project and will be able to see the actual DNA comparisons.

YDNA can also be uploaded to other sites to look for matches there.

https://www.familytreedna.com/

There is a sale on until 28 April at the moment. There is also usually a YDNA sale for Father's Day in June.

To get meaningful matches, you really do want the 67-marker test, which is on sale for 209 USD, down from 268. The price seems to go up rather than down over time ...

But the Y-37 at 139 USD, down from 169, is a reasonable place to start, actually. That's what I did with a male rellie on my mum's side, and then upgraded to 67 to check out the match I got, who turned out to be quite close even at the 67 level.

If your husband has already done a Y test, let us know and I may be able to offer some advice.