Genealogy Chat

Just because the witnesses signed their names doesn't necessarily mean they would notice a mistake on the certificate. Lots of people then could sign their name without being able to read or write anything else.

I go along with the theory of the vicar/clerk just making a mistake.

Kath. x

I agree that the clerk getting confused is a likely explanation, although he must have been pretty seriously confused .

I'm not sure about the proposal that Green was the name of the children's father, I think it much more likely that Green was the name of the mother, father unknown. This is supported by the GRO record, by "natural child" in the C1841, and by Harriet or Margaret Charlotte Green giving her name as Green on the marriage record with Higgins as father.

It's true that Thomas and Harriet / Margaret Charlotte Green signed with xs, but the witnesses didn't, so one might have expected them to see the error.

You could also read some significance into the fact that Harriet's two natural children were baptised just before the Thomas Eades marriage.

And yes, it's all conjecture, no real evidence yet, so the search goes on!

Thanks to all for the thinking so far ...

Keith

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the vicar / parish clerk entered the wrong names for the bride.

I have a certificate for a Janet marrying.
Her father is named as Janet too, instead of his correct name of James.

I guess the vicar got as far as Ja..... and went off track a bit.

Although it does seem a bit far-fetched, I think I agree with the theory that the parish clerk (or whoever wrote the record) got confused.

I can't see any marriage for Harriet to a Green, but as per Margaret's christening record, she was obviously calling herself Green, which I assume was the name of the children's father, and of course the children were called Green .

Can't see any unmarried male Greens in Egham of approx. Harriet's age, so either the children's father was married, or he'd left Egham by the time of the 1851 census.

Both Thomas and Harriet just made their marks on the register, so probably wouldn't have known if the name on the register was the wrong one.
Her name would have been said correctly during the ceremony, and the surname Green is "correct" - but Margaret Charlotte written by mistake instead of Harriet.


However, if the children's births on GRO with no MMS are the correct ones, there must have been a mistake there too, if Harriet's mms was Higgins.
I suppose if Harriet was calling herself Green, but also said she wasn't married, the registrar would assume Green was her mms.

But no proof of anything - just conjecture.

Is this Charles in 1841? He is described as being a Bricklayer whereas he is a Gardener in 1851.

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Charles Street, St George the Martyr, St George Southwark, London & Surrey, England


First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Mary Hopkins Female 35 1806 Surrey, England
Josiah Johns Male 14 1827 -
Susan Johns Female 15 1826 -
John Robles Male 30 1811 Scotland
Phillipa Stevens Female 30 1811 -
David Warren Male 40 1801 Surrey, England
Susannah Warren Female 30 1811 -
Sophia Warren Female 10 1831 -
Eleanor Warren Female 8 1833 -
Richard Warren Male 1 1840 Surrey, England
>>Charles Higgins Male 45 1796 Surrey, England
Anne Higgins Female 20 1821 Surrey, England
>Harriett Higgins Female 12 1829 Surrey, England


EDIT No I have just read that you have found him living by himself in 1841.


So this is the correct one. He is a gardener.


1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census

E Green, Egham, Windsor, Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Charles Higgins Female 45 1796 Surrey, England

I'm not sure on that Charles Higgins/ Eliza Green marriage.

On the 1851 census Charles birth date is c1794- burial gives a year of c1793.

The Charles that marries in 1842 is aged 33 (or 35?) and is listed as a servant. It doesn't fit with your Charles.

Thank you for searching, malyon. Those records are the ones that lead to one of the puzzles:

In 1850 we have Margaret Charlotte Green being baptised (with her brother, mother unmarried)
In 1850 we have Margaret Charlotte Green marrying Thomas Eades
In 1851 we have Margaret Charlotte Green age 0, natural child, living with Harriet and Thomas

Because Margaret Charlotte Green was just born at the time of the marriage, there has been the suggestion that the minister entered her name, rather than Harriet's, into the marriage register through confusion. I find that a bit of a stretch, but I can't find conclusive evidence either way.

Keith

Margaret Charlotte Green
England Marriages, 1538–1973

marriage: 13 October 1850 Egham, Surrey, England
father: Charles Higgins
spouse: Thomas Edes
other: George Edes

Margeret Charlotte Green
England and Wales Census, 1851
Name: Margeret Charlotte Green
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1851
Event Place: Egham, Berkshire, England
Registration District: Egham
Gender: Female
Age: 0
Birth Year (Estimated): 1851
Birthplace: Egham, Surrey
Page Number: 17
Registration Number: HO107
Piece/Folio: 1695 / 132
Affiliate Record Type: Household
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Ede Head Male 26 Egham, Surrey
Harriet Ede Wife Female 24 Egham, Surrey
Thomas Green Male 3 Egham, Surrey
Margeret Charlotte Green Female 0 Egham, Surrey
Charles Higgins Father-In-Law Male 57 Egham, Surrey

Margaret Charlotte Green
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Margaret Charlotte Green
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 15 Sep 1850
Christening Date (Original): 15 SEP 1850
Christening Place: EGHAM,SURREY,ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Harriet Green

Yes, that's a possible, Harriet / Margaret Charlotte Green could have been illegitimate and Charles "made an honest woman" of her mother. Or it could have been a second marriage for Eliza, Green being her married name. In fact that's the best feasible explanation yet, thank you!

However, All Souls,St Marylebone does not have an obvious connection to Egham. And there are far too many Charles Higgins .

Keith

????


Eliza Green
mentioned in the record of Charles Higgins and Eliza Green
Name Charles Higgins
Spouse's Name Eliza Green
Event Date 26 Jun 1842
Event Place All Souls,St Marylebone,London,England

may be harriets mother married charles higgins
that is if eliza is harriets mother ????

Thomas Eades married Margaret Charlotte Green 13 October 1850. But, I cannot find any other records for a Margaret Charlotte Green of marriageable age at that time.

A few months later, C1851, Thomas Eades is living with his wife Harriet in Egham.

Harriet has two (presumed illegitimate, GRO shows no MMN) children: George Thomas Green 1848 and Margaret Charlotte Green 1850, both baptised in 1850 a month before the Thomas Eades marriage.

One obvious possibility is that Harriet Green was mistakenly documented as Margaret Charlotte Green on the marriage record, but I find it quite a jump from "do you, Margaret Charlotte, take this man ..." to Harriet - or vice versa.

So, did Margaret Charlotte Green exist? Did the minister get confused and record her name wrongly? Were Harriet and Margaret Charlotte Green sisters? Or one and the same person?

The second related puzzle is Harriet's / Margaret Charlotte's father. On the marriage record he is given as Charles Higgins. So how did the daughter of a Higgins become a Green? I can think of a number of mechanisms, but rather than building hypotheses I'd like to find some evidence - which I have so far been unable to do.

Charles is to be found in C1841 living by himself but with a Harriett Hygins living and working next door (note: Higgins, not Green). Charles can also be found in C1851 living with Thomas Eades and cited as father-in-law (ie father of Harriet).

I'd welcome any additional evidence and testable theories ...

Keith