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cant find Lizzie Orton Brown.

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Suzanne

Suzanne Report 1 May 2022 17:35

Hello again.

Not sure if I can ask again for help, but here goes.

In 1915 my grandfather was born to an unmarried mother in a house in Liverpool
The house was owned by a Lizzie Orton Brown, a Nurse. I discovered this with help from a lady on this site way back in 2005 by the name of Patricia.
I've never been able to find anything else about Lizzie since then, who was she, did she own the house my grandad was born in, was it a mother and baby home? Did she deliver my grandad? Of course, these questions will never be answered. But I would love to discover something about the woman who owned the house my grandad was born in.
I've looked for her in the 1911/1921 and 1939 census and also the summery books
but I've had no luck. Any suggestions would be gratefully received. The address of the house is 17 Beaconsfield street, Toxteth park, Liverpool. Thank you.

Suzanne

Suzanne Report 1 May 2022 18:08

Hello, Thank you both,
I didn't look for a birth because I wanted info on the adult Lizzie, and no I've not got another thread as far as I know. But thank you anyway.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 1 May 2022 18:16

A 2012 thread by Suzanne re Lizzie -

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1309392

There's also brief mention of Lizzie on page 2 of this 2005 thread (on 28 Sept at 21:25):

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/817685

No helper named Patricia on either of them.

There are also a couple of threads by Suzanne re finding occupants of 17 Beaconsfield Street in 1915 ER, but not mentioning Lizzie.

Suzanne -
to find your old threads, click on "My threads" in the Tools menu at the left side of this page, and then "My threads - started" near the top of the resulting list of threads.

You said,
"I discovered this with help from a lady on this site way back in 2005 by the name of Patricia", so unless you deleted it, the thread must be here somewhere.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 1 May 2022 18:37

???

Lizzie Orton Brown
in the UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: Lizzie Orton Brown
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 31 Oct 1914
Marriage Place: Parish Church Maltby
Document Date: 1915
Residence Place: 2 Kenilworth Place, Francis Road Birmingham
Military Date: 1915
Relationship to Soldier: Spouse
Form Title: Descriptive Report Enlistment
Other Records:
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
Russell Joseph Perks Self (Head)
Lizzie Orton Brown Spouse

Married at Maltby Parish Church on 31 Oct 1914.


Lizzie C Brown
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Lizzie C Brown
Spouse Surname: Parks
Registration Year: 1914
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Rotherham
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 1365
Records on Page:
Name
Lizzie C Brown
Russell J Perks


Lizzie Orton Brown
in the Liverpool, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1970
Name: Lizzie Orton Brown
Residence Year: 1914-1915 [also on the 1913-14 ER ]
Street Address: 17 Beaconsfield Street
Residence Place: Lancashire, England
Electoral District: Liverpool, Toxteth


Lizzie Orton Perks [ and her husband ]
in the West Yorkshire, England, Electoral Registers, 1840-1962
Name: Lizzie Orton Perks
Year: 1925
Country: England
County: West Yorkshire
Parliamentary Division: Wentworth
Place of Abode: Cortworth, Wentworth
Reference Number: Wentworth


Lizzie D Perks
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Lizzie D Perks
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 20 Feb 1884
Residence Date: 1939
Address: Rectory Cottage
Residence Place: Blandford, Dorset, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number: 24
Schedule Number: 37
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: Wlbl
Borough: Blandford
Registration district: 252.2
Inferred Spouse:
Joseph R Perks
Household Members Age
Joseph R Perks 55
Lizzie D Perks 55


Lizzie Orton Perks
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Lizzie Orton Perks
Death Age: 89
Birth Date: 25 Feb 1884
Registration Date: Apr 1973[May 1973] [Jun 1973]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Rother Valley
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 1607


Lizzie Orton Perks
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Name: Lizzie Orton Perks
Death Date: 19 Apr 1973
Death Place: Maltby Rotherham [Address: Rolleston House, Maltby, Rotherham]
Probate Date: 17 Aug 1973
Probate Registry: Sheffield



Her husband's death:

Russell J Perks
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Russell J Perks
Death Age: 55
Birth Date: abt 1885
Registration Date: Jul 1940[Aug 1940] [Sep 1940]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: Liverpool North
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 411


They don't appear to have had any children.

Suzanne

Suzanne Report 1 May 2022 18:45

Hello

I'm sorry 2005 is a very long time ago to remember who I've posted about, it's been quite a few years since I was last on here and only renewed my membership a few months ago to start my research again. Sorry to mess your Sunday afternoon up with my stupid questions. I won't be asking for help again, but if anyone wants any look-ups, I'm more than happy to help.

Suzanne

Suzanne Report 1 May 2022 18:54

EricaH

The message is dated 1st Feb 2005 from Patricia subject Electoral. All she tells me is that Miss Lizzie Orton Brown, a nurse, was living in the house. That I asked about(I have the print-out) Thats all she can tell me.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 1 May 2022 18:56

Suzanne -

did you notice my post above, with details of Lizzie's adult life?

nameslessone

nameslessone Report 1 May 2022 20:06

Lizzie

If you wish to ask questions or ask for help then please do so. No one on here is more important than anyone else.

Suzanne

Suzanne Report 1 May 2022 20:07

Thank you.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 1 May 2022 23:46

BUT - I THINK LIZZIE 1884 IS THE WRONG WOMAN!

Looking again at the suggestion that Lizzie was a nurse -

Lizzie (1884) wasn't a nurse - at least not according to any of the records online.
Electoral Rolls don't give occupation or age.
She was a cook in 1911, in Yorkshire, as already mentioned, and then married by the end of 1914.
I don't think she'd be likely to be a householder in Liverpool in 1913-15.

Lizzie Broun
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Lizzie Broun
Age in 1911: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Tickhill, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Wentworth
Country: England
Street Address: Westworth Nr Rotherham
Marital status: Single
Occupation: Cook
Registration District Number: 511
Sub-registration District: Wath
ED, institution, or vessel: 02
Piece: 28111
Household Members:
Name Age
Florence Carlos Barr 45
Nolet Kathleen Barr 11
Lus Templeton Barr 7
Mollie Barr 4
Nellie Ellis 36
Elice Uttley 21
Lizzie Broun 27

And a servant in 1901:

Lizzie O Brown
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Lizzie O Brown
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Not Known, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Maltby
Ecclesiastical parish: Maltby St Bartholomew
Town: Sandbach
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration District: Rotherham
Sub-registration District: Maltby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Piece: 4403
Folio: 15
Page Number: 22
Household Schedule Number: 146
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Oliver 67
Janet Oliver 65
William Oliver 33
Robina M Oliver 23
Flora Oliver 19
Jessie Mann 31
Jeannetta Mann 10
Peter W Mann 5
Lizzie O Brown 17
Harry Turner 23
John Turner 17
John Thomas 19



However, there's this woman, born 1864, who was a nurse.
Records of her were posted on one of the other threads.

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1309392

Lizzie O M Brown
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Lizzie O M Brown
Gender: Female
Age: 26
Relationship: Servant
Birth Year: 1865
Birth Place: Tickhill, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephans
Residence Place: Kingston upon Hull, Holy Trinity, Yorkshire, England
Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: Myton
ED, Institution or Vessel: 5
Neighbors:
Piece: 3936
Folio: 88
Household Members Age Relationship
Henry Denniss 72 Head
Elizabeth Denniss 75 Wife
Emily H Denniss 35 Daughter
Lizzie O M Brown 26 Servant - Medical & surgical nurse
Emma Wilkinson 23 Servant
Fanny Wilkinson 20 Servant

This is the birth of that woman:

BROWN, ELIZABETH ORTON mmn ORTON
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in DONCASTER IN THE COUNTIES OF YORK AND NOTTINGHAM Volume 09C Page 515

And her death:

BROWN, ELIZABETH ORTON 73
GRO Reference: 1938 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL SOUTH Volume 08B Page 157

Elizabeth Orton Brown
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1985
Name: Elizabeth Orton Brown
Death Age: 73
Birth Date: abt 1865
Death Date: 1938
Burial Date: 4 Apr 1938
Burial Place: Yew Tree Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Address: 4 Ruthven Road.

With the Liverpool connection, she seems much more likely to be the woman at 17 Beaconsfield Street in 1913-15, rather than the younger Lizzie who was a cook in 1911 and married in 1914.

The other thread also has her as a domestic nurse in 1881, and probably as a sick nurse in 1911 in Wavertree.

Elizabeth Brown
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Brown
Age in 1911: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Tickhill, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Toxteth Park
Country: England
Street Address: 30 Garmoyle Rd Wavertree Liverpool
Marital status: Spinster (Single (Female))
Occupation: Sick Nurse [ working on own account )
Registration District Number: 454
Sub-registration District: Toxteth Park East
ED, institution, or vessel: 07
Piece: 22285
Household Members:
Name Age
William Henry Oates 45
Lily Oates 32
Gladys Oates 9
William Leslie Oates 6
Elizabeth Whalley 46
Elizabeth Brown 42


As she didn't marry, it looks as if you have already had all there is to find about her adult life.

greyghost

greyghost Report 2 May 2022 12:13

1921 census for an Elizabeth O Brown age 56 born 1865 Yorkshire, a servant, Cook living in Toxteth Park.

The address is 3 Princes Avenue, Toxteth Park

Louisa Pickering 34 b Buxton Derbys is Head of house and is a Boarding House Propriertor
Frederick Howard Pickering age 31 b Liverpool is her husband., also Boarding house Proprietor
John Pickering son aged 6 b Liverpool
Frederick Howard Pickering son aged 1 b Liverpool
May Radick 26 Sister b Liverpool and her husband
William Radick 26 Brother in Law b Liverpool a police Constable
John Wood Father 59 b Staffordshire a Gateman and his wife
Mary Ann Wood Stepmother aged 56 b Athlone, Ireland House duties
Martha Taylor 15,Servant, Nursemaid b Liverpool aged 15
Various Boarders - an engineer, Cotton Merchant, shipping Agent, Buyer, Lawyer, Commercial Manager

If you (or anyone else think it's likely to be her) I can send the images to you (6)


greyghost

greyghost Report 2 May 2022 12:28

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1917 (>99%)

Pickering Frederick H Wood Toxteth P. 8b 294
Wood Louisa B Pickering Toxteth P. 8b 294

------------
?? (from freebmd but not on GRO site)

Births Jun 1915 (>99%)
Pickering John Wood Liverpool 10d D47 (Liverpool in italics) and D47 refers to Dec Qtr 1947 (see below)

Births Dec 1947 (>99%)
Pickering John Wood Liverpool S. 10d 907


From lancsbmd site
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1915
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Year Sub-District Registers At Reference Add to Summary
PICKERING John 1915 Toxteth Park Liverpool TP/26A/13

------------------------
From GRO
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
PICKERING, FREDERICK HOWARD WOOD
GRO Reference: 1919 D Quarter in TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 418

Suzanne

Suzanne Report 2 May 2022 16:19

Hello Gray ghost.

Thank you for your look-up on my behalf,
I don't think the Elizabeth O Brown is her, as my Elizabeth was a nurse.

But thank you for looking.

Best wishes

SUE.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 2 May 2022 16:46

It's possible that she had changed her occupation between 1915 and 1921.

There isn't any other Elizabeth or Lizzie O Brown born in Yorkshire 1864-6, and no other sign of her in the 1921 census.

Her death cert would tell you what her occupation had been at the time of her death.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 2 May 2022 22:02

She is at 4 Ruthven Road from at least 1930 until her death in 1938.
(In 1930 her middle name is wrongly given as Olive.):

Elizabeth Orton Brown
in the Liverpool, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1970
Name: Elizabeth Orton Brown
Residence Year: 1931-1932
Street Address: 4 Ruthven Road
Residence Place: Lancashire, England
Electoral District: Liverpool, Fairfield and Wavertree

Frederick and Louisa Pickering are at the same address at least 1930-1939. Presumably a different flat at the same address.

The Pickerings are at 3 Princes Avenue (as in 1921 census) from at least 1921 until 1929, but Elizabeth isn't on the ER at that address.

alviegal

alviegal Report 3 May 2022 12:30

A very, very gruesome case that she was involved in.

Recorder at the Quarter Sessions yesterday, and which ended in sentences of twelve months’ imprisonment on nurse named Elizabeth Orton Brown, aged fifty-three., “Not guilty” was pleaded.by the prisoner, a kindly-looking woman, to those indictments respectively ....

01 August 1917 - Liverpool Daily Post - Liverpool, Lancashire, England


Liverpool and District Trained Midwives' Association ask us to call the attention of the public to the fact that Mrs. Elizabeth Orton Brown, 17, Beaconsfield street, Liverpool, who was convicted on July 31, 1917, in the remarkable case at the Liverpool City sessions, was not a certified midwife, nor qualified to praciise midwifery.

09 August 1917 - Liverpool Echo - Liverpool, Lancashire, England


Reading all the reports it appears that Lizzie would take women in, help them give birth and then arrange adoption for the child.
This case had a Jessie Turner from Scotland coming down, giving birth and then being persuaded to leave the baby with Lizzie as she had arranged adoption. She said it would be too expensive to put it in the papers and she would get one of her friends to adopt, all this for a fee.
Some time after she wrote to Jessie saying the baby had been returned, but she had someone else willing to adopt but she needed more money. Jessie got in touch with the poor law guardians who then made enquiries.
A young woman, Marjorie Hughes, living at Lizzie's then claimed the baby had been kept by Lizzie but had suffocated in bed 4-6 weeks later. She claimed she was made to burn the baby's body.
Marjorie had epilepsy and had herself given birth to a child at Lizzie's. She stayed on to help with housework and slept in the same bed as Lizzie and the baby and that is how the baby died.

It is a very gruesome tale of what they did with the poor baby.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 May 2022 16:18

No wonder she was no longer a "nurse" in 1921 census!

Maybe your grandfather was lucky to survive, Sue.

Suzanne

Suzanne Report 9 May 2022 09:21

Good God :-0


Thank you for this.

Yes, my grandfather was born in that house in 1915 and adopted.


Regards

Sue

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 9 May 2022 12:39

Not relevant to the query - but just for interest -

the newspaper reports give poor Jessie's full name as Jessie Christine Aline Turner.
I looked to see what became of her later.

She was born on 21 May 1891 in Glasgow.
She was in Helensburgh, Dunbartonshire with her mother and sister (both named Christina) in 1901.
Her mother died in 1904. I'm not sure when her father William Duncan Turner (just Duncan on most records) died.
She married James Mann Clark in Glasgow in 1921, and died in Helensburgh in 1955.
The informant on her death cert was her husband.

She and James had a son in 1921 - James Peter Turner Clark - who died in 1985 in Dunbartonshire.
Another probable son was born in 1923 - Duncan Turner Clark - who may have died in Chester in 1969.
A third probable son, also with middle name Turner, was born in 1927.

I don't know if they had more children or not - but it's good to see that the baby who died in Elizabeth Orton Brown's "care" wasn't her only child.


The child was born on 26 Sept 1916, per the newspaper reports:

Births Dec 1916 (>99%)
Turner Richard Turner Toxteth P. 8b 279

I don't see a death cert - maybe they couldn't issue one ? The newspaper report says the ashes were unidentifiable.

alviegal

alviegal Report 9 May 2022 14:37

Poor woman, a long way to go to give birth, wonder why she went so far? We'll never know that but she must have wanted the best for her poor baby, arranging and paying for him to be adopted.

As you say, thank goodness she had other children after her marriage and I hope she was happy.