Genealogy Chat

Can anyone tell me how to trace back John Smith. I know he marries Rachel Mary Rawlings (mrg says Rachel E Rawlings an error) in 1912 long Ashton. Rachel being born 1880 Bedminster Somerset and 1911 census has her living with her brother William Charles Rawlings 62 Frome Road Trowbridge Wiltshire. I cant find a birth date or place for John. I know that they had Minnie Smith 1913 brn Bristol and other siblings were born Bristol up to 1917. Minnie Smith lived in Wiltshire with all her children being born Chippenham / Trowbridge area. Thank you any help appreciated

Minnie Smith
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name Minnie Smith
Registration Date 1913 [1913]
Quarter of the Year Apr-May-Jun
Registration Place Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Mother Rawlings
Volume 6a
Page 288


Are you sure this isn't Minnie dying in infancy??

Minnie Smith
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name Minnie Smith
Age 0
Estimated Birth Year abt 1913 [abt 1913]
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place Bristol, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
Death Date Dec 1913
Inferred Death Place Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
Volume 6a
Page 155

Minnie is not with Rachel & John in 1921:

Rachel Mary Smith
in the 1921 England Census
Name Rachel Mary Smith
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Age 41 Years 3 Months
Relation to Head Wife
Estimated Birth Year 1880
Birth Place Yatton, Somerset, England
Residence Date 1921
Residence Street Address 6 Manworthy Rd, Brislington
Residence Place Brislington, Somerset, England
Occupation Home Duties
Inhabited Y
Parliamentary Division Somersetshire Pc, Frome Div.
Registration District Keynsham
Registration District Number 317
Sub registration district Keynsham
Sub Registration District Number 2
Respondent Mr Smith
Enumeration District Name Keynsham Rd
Enumeration District 1
Schedule 146
Schedule Type Code E
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John Smith 37 Years 3 Months Head - Bishopsworth, Somerset
Rachel Mary Smith 41 Years 3 Months Wife
Olive Smith 2 Years 11 Months Daughter

Births Sep 1918 (>99%)
Smith Olive Rawlings Keynsham 5c 750


However -
you were asking about John.

With parents and siblings in 1891:

John Smith
in the 1891 England Census
Name John Smith
Gender Male
Age 7
Relationship Son
Birth Year 1884
Father James Smith
Mother Amelia A Smith
Birth Place Bedminster, Somerset, England
Civil parish Bedminster
Residence Place Bishopsworth, Bedminster, Somerset, England
Registration District Bedminster
Sub registration district Bedminster
ED, Institution or Vessel 46
Neighbors
Piece 1952
Folio 93
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
James Smith 36 Head - Bedminster
Amelia A Smith 36 Wife - Bristol
Alfred Smith 12 Son
James Smith 9 Son
John Smith 7 Son
Arthur Smith 4 Son
Henry Smith 1 Son


Parents' marriage:

Marriages Mar 1874 (>99%)
Chaplain Amelia Bedminster 5c 1046
Smith James Bedminster 5c 1046

John's birth:

SMITH, JOHN mmn CHAPLIN
GRO Reference: 1884 J Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 05C Page 670

If you're trying to trace the ancestry of a Minnie, nee Smith, who lived in Chippenham
I wonder if you've got the wrong Minnie and therefore the wrong parents for her.

What was her married surname?

You say Minnie Smith’s children were born in Chippenham…what were thier names?
When were they born?
Who was their father?

Minnie and siblings born in Bristol - whom you mistakenly think are Rachel and John's children:

Births Jun 1913 (>99%)
Smith Minnie Rawlings Bristol 6a 288

SMITH, DORIS MARY mmn RAWLINGS
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 316

SMITH, GWENDOLINE NELLIE mmn RAWLINGS
GRO Reference: 1917 J Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 262


but Gwendoline's parents weren't John and Rachel:

Gwendoline Nellie Smith
in the Bristol, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1922
Name Gwendoline Nellie Smith
Age 0 [0]
Birth Date 14 May 1917
Baptism Date 6 Jun 1917
Baptism Place St Philip, Emmanuel, Bristol, England
Parish as it Appears Emmanuel the Unity
Register Type Parish Register
Father Owen Smith
Mother Florence Smith

Doris is Gwendoline's sister, and Minnie is the child who died in infancy:

Doris Smith
in the 1921 England Census
Name Doris Smith
Gender Female
Nationality British
Age 6 Years 8 Months
Relation to Head Daughter
Orphanhood Both Parents Alive
Estimated Birth Year 1914
Birth Place Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Residence Date 1921
Residence Street Address Fair Ground Pottery Quay, Devonport
Residence Place Devonport, Devon, England
Education Part-Time
Employer Employer Private Owen Smith
Employer Code 759
Place of Work No Fixed Place Pottery Quay Devonport
Inhabited Y
Ward Nelson
Parliamentary Division Plymouth Pb, Devonport Div.
Registration District Devonport
Registration District Number 278
Sub registration district Devonport South
Sub Registration District Number 1
Respondent Mr O Smith
Enumeration District Name Plymouth Cb
Enumeration District 12
Schedule 277
Schedule Type Code E
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Owen Smith 50 Years 8 Months Head, Father (Head)
Florence Smith 46 Years 4 Months Wife
William Smith 21 Years 6 Months Son
Lilian Smith 18 Years 5 Months Daughter
Florence Smith 16 Years 9 Months Daughter
Elsie Smith 14 Years 6 Months Daughter
Agnes Smith 13 Years 2 Months Daughter
Violet Smith 10 Years 9 Months Daughter
Doris Smith 6 Years 8 Months Daughter <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Gwendoline Smith 4 Years 7 Months Daughter <<<<<<<<<<<<<

Thank you so much. Minnie Smith never died in infancy as ended up in care home where i visited her. After death it was found she never married but father had surname Smith . I understand from family (sister in law) that they were romanys . I will put the above to Linda (Minnies daughter) Minnie was born 1913 Bristol

There was only one Minnie Smith birth registered in Bristol in 1913, and she was definitely Owen and Florence's daughter:

Minnie Smith
in the Bristol, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1922
Name Minnie Smith
Age 0 [0]
Birth Date 21 Feb 1913
Baptism Date 12 Mar 1913
Baptism Place St Philip, Emmanuel, Bristol, England
Parish as it Appears Emmanuel
Register Type Parish Register
Father Owen Smith
Mother Florence Smith

What was your Minnie's surname when she died? When did she die?
What was her DOB?


If your Minnie had Romany ancestry, there may not be full records of her on the usual sites. Her birth may not have been registered.
You might find this site of interest: https://rtfhs.org.uk/

Google AI says:
"Tracing Romany genealogy in the UK requires combining traditional record research with specialized Romany resources, as families were highly mobile, often appearing in censuses as "travellers" or "itinerants". Key strategies include searching for common surnames (e.g., Lee, Boswell, Smith), tracking occupational clues like hawker or tinman, and utilizing the Romany and Traveller Family History Society (RTFHS)."

We need every possible snippet if we are to try to help.

Firstly.............when/where did she die?

Thank you so much. Minnie Smith never died in infancy as ended up in care home where i visited her. After death it was found she never married but father had surname Smith . I understand from family (sister in law) that they were romanys . I will put the above to Linda (Minnies daughter) Minnie was born 1913 Bristol

She died as Minnie Smith as daughter says fathers surname also Smith, It was only after death children found out mother and father not married.

Died when and where as I asked before

How does anyone know where and when she was born?

Minnie died 2002 in Bath. She was in care home in Chippenham Wilts before death.

I will look at the romany site you sent me and try to see if Minnie's daughter can give me more information. Minnie's (husband as family thought) but turned out not to be married was Leonard Smith brn 1909 12/4/09 Bradford on Avon and died Chippenham 1971 They were also Romany but that family were easy to trace .

The info about Leonard is actually useful

He is on 1939 register with Minnie DoB 13 May 1915

The birth for Dora Smith DoB Nov 1932, was registered in Cirencester district

Her elder sister Minnie doesn’t seem to have been registered anywhere

Minnie's DOB on the 1939 Register has been transcribed as 13/5/1911 on Ancestry.

The final figure is a bit unclear - could be a 5 , as FMP thinks it is (per ErikaH's post above.)
However, the DOB has been altered later, to 25/5/1912.



Minnie Smith Sr
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name Minnie Smith Sr
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Birth Date 13 May 1911
Residence Date 1939
Address 208 Coombsham
Residence Place Bradford and Melksham, Wiltshire, England
Occupation Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number 5
Schedule Number 105
Sub Schedule Number 2
Enumeration District Wscj
Borough Bradford and Melksham
Registration District 247-1
Inferred Spouse
Leonard Smith
Inferred Children
Minnie Smith
Dora Smith
Household Members (Name) Gender Birth Year
Leonard Smith Male 1909
Minnie Smith Female 1911
Minnie Smith Female 1930
Dora Smith Female 1932
This record is officially closed.

IF Minnie senior's birth was in fact registered, here are the possibilities to fit in with the dates above - IF any of those dates is correct:

SMITH, MINNIE CAPEL
GRO Reference: 1911 J Quarter in WINSLOW Volume 03A Page 1011

SMITH, MINNIE CHAPPEL
GRO Reference: 1911 J Quarter in TADCASTER Volume 09C Page 1019

SMITH, MINNIE CLEWS
GRO Reference: 1911 J Quarter in STOCKPORT Volume 08A Page 64


SMITH, MINNIE GILL
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 777

SMITH, MINNIE POLLARD
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 467

SMITH, MINNIE TODD
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 1153

SMITH, MINNIE WOOD
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 1410
[ DOB 4/3/1912. Father Arthur, foundry labourer, per baptism.]

SMITH, MINNIE KIRK
GRO Reference: 1915 J Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH Volume 07A Page 156

SMITH, MINNIE MOSS
GRO Reference: 1915 J Quarter in TADCASTER Volume 09C Page 1998

SMITH, MINNIE WILKINSON
GRO Reference: 1915 J Quarter in BURNLEY Volume 08E Page 300

Minnie junior's DOB stated in 1939 has also been corrected/changed.
It may have started out as 25/5/30 - impossible to see properly - then was changed to 20/11/30, and finally to 29/4/30.

However, it looks as if the November date may be correct:

Births Dec 1930 (>99%)
Smith Minnie Smith Croydon 2a 653

A Croydon birth doesn’t fit with Ruth’s statement that ALL the children were born in Wiltshire