General Chat

The doctors say when we are dead. It's their job and they chose it. The three criteria of clinical death are present when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and the brain ceases functioning i.e when there is no detectable electrical activity. Occasionally, usually within minutes, the process of death may be halted and the patient revived but when the process of dying extends to other organs ( which succumb at varying rates) and individual cells, it is irreversible and the body starts to decay.

So my question is who says when someone is dead???


OMG...what a problem to now place on our doctors ...

A baby is born and opens its eyes for the first time. What does it see? The answer is – it may seem obvious to some – nothing. Normally, its mother will hold it in her arms in such a way that the baby eyes are near her face and it will gradually begin to gain an impression and make out the general shape of her face. This process will go on for perhaps 40 minutes when it will imprint her in its mind and mother and child become bonded. It presumably has experiences going on in its mind but it does not understand any of these on a cognitive level. It has already begun to receive stimuli whilst in the womb and responds to discomfort and sounds. Its memory started to form at about 12 weeks after conception after which it begins to react to sensory experiences such as sound or discomfort.

The baby’s parents immediately start to condition it with verbal, aural and visual stimuli which baby absorbs and processes and lays down as memories. The parents then continue to condition it by telling it the cause, in their culture’s opinion, of those experiences going on in its mind. They point to objects and give them names. They indicate that the pink thing waving about in front of them is part of itself, a hand or a toe. They show it other objects that are separate from it and gradually it is conditioned to the idea that it is surrounded by objects which are not part of it. And it learns that the reflected particles of electromagnetic radiation bouncing off these objects and being collected into its eyes and transmitted to its brain as electrical impulses are colours like red, blue and green. Baby believes these light waves of varying length (colours) are an intrinsic property of the object being observed. Remove the light source and the colour disappears. Fortunately, our eyes are equipped to deal with extremely low light and have cells called rods that come into operation for detecting gray-scale (gray and shades thereof). Colours are detected by cells called cones. Some animals cannot detect colour and live in a gray-scale world. Other animals detect more colours than do humans.

Baby is, of course, may itself be described as an electrochemical machine having a little computer at the top and 5 sensory devices for intercepting and translating pheromones, gas and particles in the air (smell), detecting and interpreting molecules of chemical compounds (taste), detecting fluctuations in air pressure (hearing), receiving and changing into electrical impulses an exceedingly small part of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum (sight), detecting resistance to pressure, fluctuation in temperature and assessing texture (touch). That was until fairly recently when other things began to be discovered.

There is no computer on earth (or even envisaged) that has the power and complexity of the living brain. Two of the mightiest computers on earth linked together are, arguably, less complex than a hen’s brain. There are things going on in the brain, mine and yours, which are works of creation and not necessarily linked to what is going on “out there”. The physical body is itself one of the things “out there”, not the complete human being.

Some children experience things which the adults around them do not. They are considered by the already normally conditioned adults to have over-active imaginations. Such adults “know” that the things the children experience are not “true”. Children up to about 16 years old can hear what older folk cannot yet this is acceptable as it can easily be proved. Some children have imaginary friends and others have out-of-the-body experiences and describe floating around the house at night. Sometimes the parents become angry and scold the children who then stop talking about any experience they may have had and may even begin to believe that there is something wrong with them.. Such parents have a heavy responsibility for the possible destruction of an extra power of perception in their child, or what might be regarded as an extra window into a dimension of the universe that they themselves no longer possess

Researchers at Freiberg University, one of Germany’s oldest and most respected academic institutions,in June 2005 published a paper in the British Journal of Psychology suggesting that humans do have paranormal powers. What they investigated was “distant intentionality” a term devised to mean detecting the presence of another, hidden person without the use of the normal senses and/or affecting another mind over any distance by means of “a subtle energy field”.

Investigations are being made in Holland, Britain and Canada into “Near Death Experience”. Studies in Holland, particularly by Dr P. Van Lommel of Rijnstate Hospital, whose team have interviewed hundreds of patients (in 10 hospitals across the country), who were resuscitated after being clinically dead, reached conclusions that “pushed at the limit of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind/brain relationship”. Christopher French of the Anomalistic Psychology Research Unit of Goldsmith College in London stated “if researchers could prove that clinically dead patients with no electrical activity in their cortex can be aware of what went on round them and form memories, this would suggest that the brain does not generate consciousness”.

The late Robert Jahn, for 25 years Professor Emeritus of Princeton University, and his team of experts drawn from various disciplines, have done much research and repeatable experiments indicating than the human mind is able to insert information into computers and to some degree affect random information generators that makes the information “not quite so random”.

In para-psychology, perception of or knowledge of something achieved without using our usual physical sense organs is usually criticized as trickery or over-active imagination. This applies to seeing or sensing non-physical phenomena, having premonitions, thought reading, “knowing” when one is being gazed at by an unseen observer or knowing that the ‘phone is about to ring, and sensing who is calling,

There is a long history of ESP (extra-sensory perception) but it is impossible to collect and study all the evidence as ESP is not robustly reproducible under conditions of scientific experiment. The reach of the mind is enormous and much research is ongoing with thousands of researchers in many countries. It is not only ESP but many of the normal functions of the brain which although universally acknowledged and used (e.g. hypnosis and stem-cell activity) are “not fully understood”, a scientific euphemism for “ we haven’t got a clue”.

The universe consists of matter and energy in motion. Only between 4% and 5% of what is out there is known to science. The remainder, the great unknown, is referred to as "dark matter". "Dark" in this context means "unknown". There is nothing but matter; atoms, sub-atomic particles all on the move. All things and all matter (including you and me and whatever we are sitting on) are made of something that already existed - since matter is indestructible. All forms of energy, which are obtained from constituent atoms, which are vibrating, are transferable into one another without loss or gain. It is a fundamental law of physics and the universe that matter and energy cannot be destroyed, only transmuted into another form. What form is that? In the case of people it is usually chemicals (mostly water which consists of hydrogen and oxygen) and some sort of energy such as heat or electricity although there are many, many forms of energy.

If brain and mind are two separate entities, capable of separating and being re-joined, and the latest findings of medical scientists indicate it looks that way, it is not unreasonable to postulate that if either is terminated in its existing form then it must be transmuted into something else. The brain of course will suffer a chemical breakdown, and revert to mainly water, a few chemicals such as potassium, sodium etc and release a bit of heat in the process. But what of the mind? Where does that go - and how? From observations so far, the mind appears to remain intact with reason, memory and certain powers which it is fair to say have similarities with "distant intentionality" as referred to above. So if a disembodied mind can influence another, still in a living body, could it not cause sensation in in the second mind that may produce an image in the visual cortex of that brain i.e. appear as if the recipient brain was actually seeing an apparition? Looking at it from the other direction why should not a living mind detect and "visualise" a paranormal entity? It has already been demonstrated by Swedish and UK researchers that about 20% of people are able to detect electromagnetic force fields from overhead power cables.

Agree with all that as well, Len. as I said - I am totally unaware - doesn't mean it doesn't happen!
Both my daughters' saw 'ghosts' when they were young , and one had an 'out of body experience' before she could talk properly!
Long story - but she fell down the stairs, I went to pick her up, and she screamed blue murder. When she could talk, she asked why I had walked through her!
Both children had 'invisible' friends - but had each other (especially the younger) - there was only 2 and a half years between them - so neither really 'needed' an invisible friend through loneliness.
Youngest used hers as a 'foil' for drawing on the wall!! LOL- had to explain that she should stop her friends from defacing my house!

They both had 'histories' of these friends (one from the victorian era, the other romano/britain) and could tell me all about them - the historical knowledge they portrayed was way beyond their years.

What cannot be emphasized enough is that what we perceive of the world, not to mention the universe, is just a tiny range of what there is. Our eyes are sensitive to just a very narrow band of a huge spectrum of radiation that includes radio waves, microwaves, x-rays, gamma rays, infra red and ultra violet light and beyond and all manner of electro-magnetic waves. Our ears pick up but a fraction of the sound that exists and we come a very poor second, in this respect, to our domestic pets.

We are oblivious of things less than about a millimeter across, but tend to believe that what our limited senses do not perceive cannot possibly exist. Most people had difficulty in coming to terms with or even believing in bacteria until the fairly recent invention of the microscope. Even today, with some people, seeing is believing. Many physical processes make no impression on our senses but these days, science is becoming (and I stress the word "becoming") to make more and more of the strange world out there accessible.

Perception of what is around and inside us, by means other than sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste (the so-called 5 senses) is known as "mindsight". The mind "sees" something that is not registered by the normal 5 senses although the brain may then delude us into thinking it is our eyes, ears or nose that is picking up the phenomena. It will seem that real to us!

Until recent tests were carried out at the University of British Columbia in Canada, this was just another "not proven" example of the power of the mind. Vision researcher Dan Simons of the University of Illinois, now “suggests the existence of an interesting and previously unknown “attentional mechanism" i.e. mindsight. It was further suggested that people who do not experience this may be screening out what appears to be a gut feeling in favour of what is, to them, more rational.

Agree with all that Len LOL.
However - I believe ghosts may be a manifestation of the viewer, created by the presence of the mind/soul/consciousness/electrical energy of the deceased - rather like if you smell the perfume of a loved one their image appears in your mind.
The 'aura' (ie soul/mind etc) of a deceased person may give a stronger 'feel' - hence a vision may be conjured up of someone you have never met.
Some may be able to sense the aura more than others - hence some 'see' ghosts, other's 'sense' them and people like me are totally unaware!!

Maggie: Plato regarded the soul as being like the brain but without the physical properties; a rational, free-floating eternal intelligence. He regarded God in the same light but omnipotent. Many cosmologists now concede that the universe cannot be explained by mathematics but can only be the product of a vast intelligence

It is beginning, according to some scientists, to become apparent that we do have souls although perhaps it is more p.c. to refer to this intelligence as “mind or consciousness”. So far, science has been unable to define or locate consciousness . Evidence is slowly emerging that this id/mind/soul/consciousness is not a brain function but is capable of leaving the body, occasionally returning. This is the inference of at least 5 independent reports. There are other sources. This sort of thinking obviously is behind the world-wide investigation now being undertaken into NDEs.

It is not a great leap of logic to suppose that the period of leaving the physical body may extend to infinity i.e. when the body no longer sustains life and is beyond resuscitation. A professor of psychology at City University (London) described the power of mind/consciousness as “a subtle energy field that, as yet, we can’t measure but which can, in various ways, interact between living organisms”

The mind may also contact and influence other minds instantaneously, irrespective of distance (Dr Stefan Schmidt, Freiberg University: "Distant intentionality"). This power of the mind may be a quantum effect and have a connection with other phenomena such as hypnosis, spiritual healing, clairvoyance, premonitions and so on. It may also affect inanimate things such as electronic devices..(Prof.R.Jahn, Princeton Anomalies Research) If it can do this whilst within a living brain, why not after separation (or liberation)?

So is this mind an independent spirit which may still have intelligent thought after departing from a body? May it still have an interest in its living kith and kin and perhaps seek to influence or comfort them? And could it return to a different, unborn body? That would be re-incarnation. Nor is it beyond reasoning, based on published scientific papers, that a mind separated from a body under traumatic or unexpectedly violent circumstances may be unable to adapt to the change and be left in a void or “time warp”. Ghosts did someone say?

Am bookmarking Len, cos it is a bit late for me to read and think deep. Will give it some thought later :-)))

Very interestng, Len, especially when coupled with the 'out of body' experiences reported by some.

I am a religious non- believer, but believe the body/brain is more than a mixtureof offal. The body is a mass of stored electrical energy - what happens to that when we die? Could it be what is known as the soul?

Contrary to popular perception, death is not a specific moment, but a well-defined process. From a biological viewpoint, cardiac arrest is synonymous with clinical death. During a cardiac arrest, all three criteria of clinical death are present: the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and the brain ceases functioning. Subsequently, there is a period of time—which may last from a few seconds up to an hour or longer—in which emergency medical efforts may succeed in resuscitating the heart and reversing the dying process. The experiences that individuals undergo during this period of cardiac arrest provide a unique window of understanding into what we are all likely to experience during the dying process.

In recent years, a number of scientific studies conducted by independent researchers have found that as many as 10-20 percent of individuals who undergo cardiac arrest report lucid, well-structured thought processes, reasoning, memories, and sometimes detailed recall of their cardiac arrest. What makes these experiences remarkable is that while studies of the brain during cardiac arrest have consistently shown that there is no brain activity during this period, these individuals have reported detailed perceptions that appear to indicate the presence of a high-level of consciousness in the absence of measurable brain activity.

These studies appear to suggest that the human mind and consciousness may in fact function at a time when the clinical criteria of death are fully present and the brain has ceased functioning. If these smaller studies can be replicated and verified through the definitive, large-scale studies of the Human Consciousness Project, they may not only revolutionize the medical care of critically ill patients and the scientific study of the mind and brain, but may also bear profound universal implications for our social understanding of death and the dying process.

Should it be proved that consciousness exists independently of a living brain/body, what are the implications?

Blinkered approach - also known as pathological disbelief in which case you may hear "even if it is true, I do not believe it".

Prof. Richard Dawkins has published a book “The God Delusion” disposing of God. Dawkins is one of those narrow minded souls. He may be offended by being referred to as a soul, but there you go. These people never seem to stray beyond the confines of their own particular discipline. He really should engage in conversation with a quantum physicist, engineer or even an astronaut who has returned from space.
Professor H J Eysenck, who occupied the Chair in Psychology at London University and was Director of the Psychological Dept. at the Maudsley and Bethlem Royal Hospitals said "Scientists, especially when they leave the field in which they have specialised, are just as ordinary, pig-headed and unreasonable as anybody else, and their unusually high intelligence only makes their prejudices all the more dangerous".

The Human Consciousness ProjectSM
Active Researchers and Scientific Advisory Group
UNITED KINGDOM
University of Southampton: Dr Sam Parnia1 (Chairman, Respiratory); Professor Stephen Holgate (Respiratory Medicine); Dr Peter Fenwick (Psychiatry); Professor Robert Peveler2 (Psychiatry); Ms Niki Fallowfield (Resuscitation); University of Cardiff: Professor Douglas Chamberlain2 (Cardiology & Resuscitation); Hammersmith Hospital: London, Mr Ken Spearpoint (Resuscitation); University of Cambridge: Ms Susan Jones (Resuscitation); University of Oxford: Ms Sue Hampshire (Resuscitation); Northampton Hospital: Ms Celia Warlow (Resuscitation); St Georges Hospital: London, Ms Leanne Smythe (Resuscitation); St Peters Hospital: Mr Paul Wills (Resuscitation); Mayday Hospital: London, Mr Russell Metcalfe Smith (Resuscitation); Royal Bournemouth Hospital: Ms Hayley Killingback (Resuscitation); Morriston Hospital: Dr Penny Sartori (Critical Care Nursing); Stevenage Hospital: Ms Salli Lovett (Critical Care); Salisbury Hospital: Mr Iain Maclean (Resuscitation); Swindon Hospital: Mr Jon Taylor (Resuscitation); University of Birmingham: Dr Peter Doyle (Emergency Medicine); Ms Tina Millward (Resuscitation); James Paget Hospital: Ms Pam Cushing (Resuscitation); East Sussex Hospitals: Dr Harry Walmsley (Anaesthetics & Resuscitation).
UNITED STATES
Weill Cornell Medical Center: Dr Sam Parnia1 (Pulmonary & Critical Care); Indiana State University: Dr Mark Feber (Pulmonary & Critical Care); University of Chicago: Dr Edward Gluck (Pulmonary & Critical Care); Drexel University: Dr Richard Hamilton (Emergency Medicine); Brooklyn Medical Center: Dr Juan Acosta (Emergency Medicine); University of Virginia: Professor Bruce Greyson (Psychiatry); Wayne State University: Detroit, Dr Christopher Green and Dr Richard Genik (Neuroimaging); University of Texas: Professor Jan Holden2 (Counseling); Albert Einstein Medical College: Dr Gabriele Devos (Research Methodology & Immunology); New York University: Dr Nonkulie Dladla (Research Methodology & Internal Medicine); University of Berkeley: Dr Henry Stapp2 (Quantum Physics).
HOLLAND
University Hospital Rijnstate: Dr Pim Vanlommel2 (Cardiology)
CANADA
University of Montreal: Dr Mario Beauregard2 (Neuroscience)
AUSTRIA
University of Vienna: Professor Roland Beisteiner (Neurology), Dr Fritz Sterz (Emergency Medicine), Dr Michael Berger (Neuroscience)
1 - Dr Parnia is currently at Weill Cornell Medical Center, New York and the University of Southampton, UK
2 - Collaborating on an advisory basis only.
3 - Investigators marked "resuscitation" are representatives of each hospital’s "Resuscitation Committee" who have agreed to participate in the study
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