General Chat

Berona,
"Thanks to the permissive society (and to the Pill!) people nowadays have babies because they want them"

Kate
"As you say, now we have the means to plan families ",

As you both say,
the means are there, but WHY( apart from the fact that benefits and housing are available to Schoolchildren or teenagers,) do children get pregnant? is it lack of morals or education? or is it
"I can do it........so I will?, the state will take care of me........."

Bob

Good thought, Berona. I was just thinking, one thing we will probably never be able to tell from parish records etc showing that our ancestors had illegitimate babies is, what were the circumstances?

In those times of no contraception, maybe the ancestor I mentioned as having three children before marriage was a girl who fell in love easily and her boyfriend promised to marry her but then did a vanishing act, maybe she was the local girl with "a reputation" or perhaps her children were fathered by an employer that she couldn't say no to without losing her job?

As you say, now we have the means to plan families - back then, there weren't really any safe alternatives to having the baby (and even that was hazardous) so I suppose they had no option but to be pregnant and possibly be ostracised.

As far back as I can remember, I have always wondered why there was a stigma attached to the innocent children 'born out of wedlock'. If anyone has seen the old movie "Blossoms in the Dust", they might remember the statement "there are no illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents".

I also always wondered why pregnant brides attracted gossip - when quite possibly, the gossips did exactly the same as they did - but got away with it?

Thanks to the permissive society (and to the Pill!) people nowadays have babies because they want them, whether married or not and there is no stigma attached to any of them. That, to me, seems as big a step for mankind as the walk on the moon.

Even though I did the "right thing" myself (or my mother would have killed me!), I believe that it's each to his own and none of anybody's business when and if we have children and illegitimacy doesn't matter any more.

Interesting question. I must admit, it never stopped me getting baptised - although I was baptised at one day old because I wasn't expected to live.

I suppose you could say there are different levels of illegitimacy - as Bob mentioned, there are people my age (I'm 24) and younger who have several different children by several different partners and I don't think I could do that personally. I do feel that it's a pity that the extreme cases are the ones picked up on in the news because I think it's giving the whole of "the younger generation" (which I hope I'm still young enough to be classed as) a bad reputation that many of that age group probably don't deserve.

On the other hand perhaps it isn't so new - my 5xgreat-aunt who was a Catholic produced three illegitimate children between the time she was twenty in 1814 and the time she was thirty-one and each one of them appeared in the parish baptism records).

Then again there are a lot of couples today in stable relationships who have children but just don't choose to marry for whatever reason.

As far as I am concerned, I am pleased that our mother or her sisters hadn't been pregnant before marriage, neither me OR my brothers had to have shotgun marriages, and both of MY children were married first(and still are) before starting their families,
but that was long ago, as they say, and to MY mind morals largely have gone out of the window, especially with many of the much younger generation........
one slip up is possibly forgiveable but I know of a case of 5 children, 5 different fathers.......
Bob

Hi Elizabeth and Rose,

My son is also illegitimate, he knows his father and father's family but doesn't seem bothered that there is no name on the birth certificate. His father lives in Malta so wasn't around for the birth or registration.

I would have had him christened but the person who came to see me and started asking about me getting him done, came back to say the then vicar of our local church, where coincidentally I was christened years before, wouldn't do it unless I promised to go to church every week. As I was a single mum in my mid thirties struggling to cope with all that had happened to me, being dumped when I got pregnant to plan of both of us, (his dad said he hadn't meant yet cos I got pregnant in the first week of trying!) and having problems with a child that never slept, there was no way I could or would say I would get to church every week, some days we didn't get up till midday as I had to snatch my sleep when I could. I figured if they were that rigid and uncaring that they couldn't see my problems, they weren't the people I wanted my son mixing with anyway. I didn't appreciate being told what to do, it was my lad I wanted christened, why should me going to church every week stop that happening?
Later on he went to a nearby Methodist church for Sunday School but left there when he decided he was confused and no one gave satisfactory answers. He said at school they told him there was an ozone layer above him in the sky and at Sunday School they said God was in heaven above him, he wanted to know which was right or how could God live in an ozone layer!! I didn't even try to explain lol, left it to school and church and they couldn't give him an answer that he could understand or believe so he said he wouldn't go to Sunday school any more lol

Lizx

Hi Elizabeth, I had no problem getting my son baptised. His father's name is not on birth cert' ( he wasn't there and you can't put it on unless present) but since my son will always know it ( not that he's especiialy bothered lol) I don't know that it matters much.

is there still a stigma? no I would say not to be honest, neither for the child or the mother now. It has become so much the 'norm' . Certainly not a moral issue like it was, when you were a 'fallen woman/ bad girl' if an unmarried mother.

rose xx

Dear All

Do you think that being "illegitimate" has a stigma?

Should it stop anyone getting baptised?

Why do people of all ages still experience problems with their birth certificates with
father not named for whatever reason?

Is there still predjudice from the church, people, etc?

What do you think?

Best wishes
x