General Chat

Religion may be described as a faith-based credence in the existence of supernatural agencies or entities in the universe. The single difference between religion and astrology or tarot divination etc is that religion has been institutionalised and, as such, has been greatly influential on most societies and still retains its hold in many. The evidential base for sectarian religious belief systems is little different from that for astral influences or the effectiveness of divination which carried more influence in the pre-Christian era.

Religion’s hold on credence is historical and not based or acting either on observation or theory, nor by way of experiment or testing. Belief requires the suspension rather the support of rational consideration.

In the early days of the Christian church, as evidenced by the epistles of St Paul, different communities embracing the new religion very soon began attempting to mould the religion to suit their own interests. In later ages, religion became a matter of state- and male-dominated power-politics and the western civilisation split into religious factions.

In the modern world, theoretical physics, cosmology, evolutionary biology, cognitive sciences and social science all tended to erode the influence of religion. Humans, being what they are, though, will continue to justify their own interests and evolve new concepts of God, spiritual transformation, unconditional love, and worship and so on and so forth but, far from loving, cultural groups tend to hate each other

The huge technical successes of modern science have obscured a deeper understanding of its place in human knowledge but there is much to be understood about spirituality or consciousness – the latter so far not even defined by science. The cosmos if full of uncanny bio-friendly coincidences that permit the existence of life and mind. If the universe came up with any old set of laws, life would almost certainly be ruled out. As the late Fred Hoyle, mathematician and astronomer, said “It looks as if a super intellect has been monkeying with physics”.

Science may yet come down on the side of Plato who regarded the soul as being like the brain but without the physical properties; a rational, free-floating eternal intelligence. He regarded God in the same light but omnipotent. Many cosmologists now concede that the universe cannot be explained by mathematics but can only be the product of a vast intelligence

Dear Len of the Chilterns

Hello

I always enjoy reading your posts.
They are always intelligent and thought provoking.

But I tell you one thing, certain people will be having a OBE if they do not contribute to the share of the housework!

Take care
Very best wishes

In a BBC survey, 68% of interviewed adults admitted to having had what they thought were paranormal experiences. Others described experiences which they put down to mental aberrations because they could not admit to the existence of paranormal phenomena.
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Throughout the world, most races predominately are adherent to a spiritually-based sectarian religion which they are prepared to defend with fervour or even violence. But admit to believing in the occult? Not on your life! Humans are complicated beings but, as Mr Spock observed, entirely illogical.

I believe in the paranormal and although I have not had surgery and actual OBE's, I do seem to travel in my sleep and have often told my OH that I have been t here before when I haven't physically, it's a bit like dejavue (sp). OH had five by pass grafts in 1988 and his outlook on life has completely changed, he is more aware of , how can I put it, the value of life, maybe he is just thankful for being given a second chance, although five years ago he had a pacemaker fitted and the surgeon told me his heart had stopped three time and he says he remembers the sensation of coming and going but didn't feel he was out of his body.

When iI was taking my degree - 10 years ago now - one of the lecturers in religion - Shirley Firth (mum of Colin) was trying to get anecdotal evidence of OBE's to encourage a study on it.
May sound strange a lecturer in religion being interested, but her expertise was in Hinduism, where, of course reincarnation is paramount.

Hi Liz.
I am back after having my "office" reverting to its former use as a spare bedroom for a few days. Daughter from Somerset & her family visited for a few days.

It's a long story but I was in Guys Hospital for 2 years and got to look upon the place as "home". I also became very self-sufficient and an observer of what went on round me. Family became visitors rather than those to whom I could talk about things.

The trick is to believe in one's own experiences. I have lived a long time and have had several paranormal experiences which are real to me but just anecdotal to others so I do not bother to recount them except in conversation with like-minded friends.

What I do though is to try and rationalise what has happened, if I can. Once it was well-nigh impossible to do so but there is so much research going on in the world, and so many new findings being verified, almost on a regular basis, that it is now increasingly difficult to dispute the paranormal. In fact quantum mechanics, the natural successor to Einstein’s theories, verges on the paranormal.

The most interesting, I feel, is the research being conducted in Holland and elsewhere into near-death and out-of-the-body experiences, which I have mentioned above. These indicate that the mind can operate independently of a physical brain/body system. The published findings of Freiburg University (in The British Journal of Psychology) also conclude that the human mind has a "sixth sense", the ability to interact with other minds at any distance, instantaneously. This phenomenon is now described as "distant intentionality" rather than the old-fashioned term "telepathy".

Again, The J.B.Rhine Foundation, also Prof. Robert Jahn of Princeton University, both in America, have done conclusive work on the reach of the mind. It’s all accessible stuff. It is not generally known but there is Chair of Parapsychology at Edinburgh University and I hope that someone there is also collating all this new material and bringing it together. Researchers play their cards very close to their chests and give nothing away until they actually publish their findings.

Were you confused when your parents wouldn't believe you Len or did you just carry on knowing you had had that experience and accepting that they didn't understand?
Must have been a bit scary for a young lad, as you were at the time.

Glad you came back to your body,

Lizx

When I was 12 I had an operation at Guys Hospital, London, to remove a plum stone that I had swallowed and which had got stuck.

At one phase, I still vividly recall being up near the ceiling in the theatre, watching the proceedings. My "being" seemed to be about the size and shape of a brain and just hovered up in a corner from where I had a good view.

On coming round from the anaesthetic (ether) I was feeling very ill and groggy and, surprisingly, angry. My parents, who had been in the hospital all the time, were there so I told them that the doctors had not done what they said they were going to do (the cause of my anger), but much more and had opened me up all down the middle and taken bits away.

It transpired that something had been found which was much more serious and an ileostomy had been performed which I was able to describe in some detail. After I was fully recovered, my parents told me that during the long operation, the theatre nurse had come out to see and console my parents and had told them that “sadly I had collapsed under the anaesthetic and passed away”.

Apparently I was clinically dead for a while and had had an out-of-the-body experience although my parents never could believe it although admitting that I had accurately described the nature of the surgery. They were convinced that I had overheard nurses talking whilst I was in the recovery ward, overlooking the fact that they were there too, when I surfaced, and did not hear details of the surgery at that stage.

Recent Scientific Studies of NDE during Cardiac Arrest
Dr S. Parnia
The answer about the significance of NDE is beginning to come from studies carried out with patients who have had a cardiac arrest.
Cardiac arrest patients are a subgroup of people who come closest to death. In such a situation an individual initially develops two out of three criteria (the absence of spontaneous breathing and heartbeat) of clinical death. Shortly afterwards (within seconds) these are followed by the third, which occurs due to the loss of activity of the areas of the brain responsible for sustaining life (brainstem) and thought processes (cerebral cortex). Brain monitoring using EEG in animals and humans has also demonstrated that the brain ceases to function at that time. During a cardiac arrest, the blood pressure drops almost immediately to unrecordable levels and at the same time, due to a lack of blood flow, the brain stops functioning as seen by flat brain waves (isoelectric line) on the monitor within around 10 seconds. This then remains the case throughout the time when the heart is given 'electric shock' therapy or when drugs such as adrenaline are given until the heartbeat is finally restored and the patient is resuscitated. Due to the lack of brain function in these circumstances, therefore, one would not expect there to be any lucid, well-structured thought processes, with reasoning and memory formation, which are characteristic of NDEs.
Nevertheless, and contrary to what we would expect scientifically, studies have shown that 'near death experiences' do occur in such situations. This therefore raises a question of how such lucid and well-structured thought processes, together with such clear and vivid memories, occur in individuals who have little or no brain function. In other words, it would appear that the mind is seen to continue in a clinical setting in which there is little or no brain function. In particular, there have been reports of people being able to 'see' details from the events that occurred during their cardiac arrest, such as their dentures being removed.
A study by our group examining 63 cardiac arrest survivors on the coronary care and emergency units of Southampton General Hospital, which was published in the medical journal 'Resuscitation' demonstrated that approximately 6-10% of people with cardiac arrest have NDEs and out of body experiences. There was no evidence to support the role of drugs, oxygen or carbon dioxide (as measured from the blood) in causing the experiences. In another study just completed in Holland, 344 cardiac arrest survivors from 10 hospitals were interviewed over a 2-year period, and 41 or 12% reported a core NDE. Patients with NDEs were then followed up for a further 8 years following the event and reported less fear of death and a more spiritual outlook on life. This study by a cardiologist Dr Pim van Lommel, is due to be published in the prestigious medical journal The Lancet either at the end of this year or early next year.
The occurrence of NDEs in cardiac arrest further highlights the fact that we currently know very little about the relationship between the mind and the brain. It also raises the possibility that some of the current theories regarding mind/consciousness, spirituality and the brain may need to be re-examined.
Dr Parnia is a graduate of Guys and St. Thomas' medical schools in London. He is currently a registrar in internal and respiratory medicine as well as a clinical research fellow working towards a PhD in the molecular biology of asthma. He was a member of the Southampton University Trust Hospitals resuscitation committee between 1998 and 1999. He is also chairman of Horizon Research Foundation. While working on the medical and coronary care units of Southampton General Hospitals and together with Dr Peter Fenwick he set up the first ever study of near death experiences in the UK. The results of this study have received widespread coverage in the national and international press and have recently been published in the medical journal "Resuscitation”

It is fascinating,Len,and I do believe in it.My very level-headed friend described her near-death experience.She "died" briefly on the operating table during an operation and had to be revived,and received a considerable amount of blood by way of a transfusion.She described in detail how she floated up to the ceiling,and watched the staff in the operating theatre working on her body to bring her back to life.

She also described the beautiful land that she went to,with beautiful trees and flowers,birds singing etc,and a feeling of great peace and happiness.A man took her by the hand,and as she was going forward she could see all her relatives who had died,her grandparents etc.,
at the end of this tunnel,waiting for her.She was told that it wasn't her time,and she had to go back,and she said that she felt really sad to go back,because this place was so beautiful,and everyone was so happy.

She woke up,back in her body again,.She said that after such a beautiful experience she is not afraid of death at all,but feels it will be a very positive experience.She is not the kind of person to make up fanciful tales,so I believe her account of her experience.

I have had my own OBE also.My cousin Judy was coming home from her work and was run over by a motorist who didn't stop on a pedestrian crossing.She was taken to hospital with horrific injuries and placed in Intensive Care.I was quite close to her at the time,and shortly after the accident I started getting pictures in my head of Judy moving around her bedroom,picking up things and then putting them down again.It completely took over my mood,I couldn't shut it out,and happened intermittently a couple of times an hour,over about a 6 hour period.I didn't understand what this was all about at all,and freaked when I realised that I could see Judy ,but she was completely unaware of my presence in her room,and I couldn't shut these moving pictures out.It was very sad,bitter-sweet,and I even cried at some parts of it.I remember going to sleep and hoping that the pictures would be gone in the morning,and when I woke up,they were-nothing-so I was very happy.I went about my business as usual.When I came home,Mum told me that Judy had been struck down on a pedestrian crossing,had sustained extensive injuries,and if she had lived she would have been a vegetable.She died in the early hours of the morning without ever regaining consciousness.I realised that I had witnessed Judy saying good-bye to her life.She may not have regained consciousness,but there was definite brain activity there.She knew that she had no chance of living,with her injuries.I know how psychics feel when they get messages,they cannot shut them out.I would hate to be on the receiving end of those messages all the time.I believe there are things we can't explain,I certainly have had quite a few.Just because we can't explain them,does not mean that they don't exist.

Margot.

Fascinating stuff Len, and others, I haven't had any experience of this but can believe it happens with no problem.


Lizx

Aren't hospitals now putting 'obvious' things on top of cupboards etc to monitor OBE's?

My daughter had what can only be described as an OBE when she was 3 years old.
She fell down the stairs, but (fortunately) stopped at the corner, but possibly hit her head on the wall.
I was upstairs and went towards her - wherepon she screamed at me not to do that! She was hysterical. I backed off for a few seconds, then picked her up.

Later, she asked me why I had 'walked through her'. I asked her what she meant. Apparently she had been floating and I had walked down the stairs - and walked through her!
A three year old has no idea of these concepts. I hadn't co-erced her into saying what she said - and she can still (in her late 20's) remember it!
Even if the cause was her hitting her head - it was stil an OBE.

I'm one who has been there,{ Near death experience}during heart surgery, and a huge number of us have been surveyed.

The overwhelming after effect is a sense of anger ,disappointment, or having been cheated at being recussed. It can alter personal values regarding worldly wealth etc, some become deeply religious and none appear to fear death having SEEN what is to come.

The Human Consciousness ProjectSM
Active Researchers and Scientific Advisory Group
UNITED KINGDOM
University of Southampton: Dr Sam Parnia1 (Chairman, Respiratory); Professor Stephen Holgate (Respiratory Medicine); Dr Peter Fenwick (Psychiatry); Professor Robert Peveler2 (Psychiatry); Ms Niki Fallowfield (Resuscitation); University of Cardiff: Professor Douglas Chamberlain2 (Cardiology & Resuscitation); Hammersmith Hospital: London, Mr Ken Spearpoint (Resuscitation); University of Cambridge: Ms Susan Jones (Resuscitation); University of Oxford: Ms Sue Hampshire (Resuscitation); Northampton Hospital: Ms Celia Warlow (Resuscitation); St Georges Hospital: London, Ms Leanne Smythe (Resuscitation); St Peters Hospital: Mr Paul Wills (Resuscitation); Mayday Hospital: London, Mr Russell Metcalfe Smith (Resuscitation); Royal Bournemouth Hospital: Ms Hayley Killingback (Resuscitation); Morriston Hospital: Dr Penny Sartori (Critical Care Nursing); Stevenage Hospital: Ms Salli Lovett (Critical Care); Salisbury Hospital: Mr Iain Maclean (Resuscitation); Swindon Hospital: Mr Jon Taylor (Resuscitation); University of Birmingham: Dr Peter Doyle (Emergency Medicine); Ms Tina Millward (Resuscitation); James Paget Hospital: Ms Pam Cushing (Resuscitation); East Sussex Hospitals: Dr Harry Walmsley (Anaesthetics & Resuscitation).
UNITED STATES
Weill Cornell Medical Center: Dr Sam Parnia1 (Pulmonary & Critical Care); Indiana State University: Dr Mark Feber (Pulmonary & Critical Care); University of Chicago: Dr Edward Gluck (Pulmonary & Critical Care); Drexel University: Dr Richard Hamilton (Emergency Medicine); Brooklyn Medical Center: Dr Juan Acosta (Emergency Medicine); University of Virginia: Professor Bruce Greyson (Psychiatry); Wayne State University: Detroit, Dr Christopher Green and Dr Richard Genik (Neuroimaging); University of Texas: Professor Jan Holden2 (Counseling); Albert Einstein Medical College: Dr Gabriele Devos (Research Methodology & Immunology); New York University: Dr Nonkulie Dladla (Research Methodology & Internal Medicine); University of Berkeley: Dr Henry Stapp2 (Quantum Physics).
HOLLAND
University Hospital Rijnstate: Dr Pim Vanlommel2 (Cardiology)
CANADA
University of Montreal: Dr Mario Beauregard2 (Neuroscience)
AUSTRIA
University of Vienna: Professor Roland Beisteiner (Neurology), Dr Fritz Sterz (Emergency Medicine), Dr Michael Berger (Neuroscience)
1 - Dr Parnia is currently at Weill Cornell Medical Center, New York and the University of Southampton, UK
2 - Collaborating on an advisory basis only.
3 - Investigators marked "resuscitation" are representatives of each hospital’s "Resuscitation Committee" who have agreed to participate in the study

It is beginning, according to science, to become likely that we do have souls although perhaps it is more upmarket to refer to this intelligence as “consciousness”.

So far, science has been unable to define consciousness. Evidence is slowly emerging that this mind/soul/consciousness is not a brain function but is capable of leaving the body for periods, sometimes returning. This is the inference of the independent reports from hospitals and universities around the world. A professor of psychology at City University (London) described the power of mind as “a subtle energy field that, as yet, we can’t measure but which can, in various ways, interact between living organisms”.

The first major breakthrough came at Rijnstate Hospital in Arnhem, Holland, where Dr Pym Vanlommel in the division of cardiology received a patient who had had a massive heart attack. He was apparently deeply unconscious on admittance but the electroencephalograph machine quickly discovered that he was brain dead. There was no electrical activity whatsoever in his brain which meant there was no brain function including memory. The team set about resuscitating the man although it seemed a forlorn hope – but the man did respond and he started breathing again indicating that brain function had revived to some extent although he did not regain consciousness.

Later, when the man was fully conscious, in the intensive care ward, he was visited by Dr van Lommel and immediately recognised him although never having “physically” seen the doctor as the nurse (he described the doctor as "nurse) who had removed his false teeth and put them in a safe place – this while the man was brain dead. Moreover, the man described the staff, resuss. measures and the trolley into which his teeth had been placed.

This Out-of-Body Eperience (OBE), of course was an eye-opener for the medical staff as the facts could not be denied. It set Dr van Lommel off on an investigation in hospitals across Holland, the results of which he published as a paper duly reported in the prestigious medical journal “The Lancet”. http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm

Cardiac arrest patients provide ideal subjects for a study into NDEs because they provide a definite moment of when the process of dying begins and when the ECG machine indicates when death has actually occurred. A person (or animal) is brain dead when all electrical activity in the brain stops. As permanently dead people never relate their experiences, it is very difficult to assess the accounts of those who do survive as they may merely be reporting hallucinations. Cardiac arrests are happening all the time. Possibly Near Death Experiences are also happening to everyone who dies – but probably we shall never know. Anyway, Dr van Lommel’s scientific paper set the wheels in motion. Technology currently exists to monitor a patient’s mental activity - whether conscious or unconscious - and to register the precise moment of brain death.

NDEs are so common and have such an enormous impact on survivors that such experiences are life-changing. The weirdest thing is that a person having one, and this has been happening in all cultures world-wide since ancient times, is that the patient seems to float up out of the body, usually to a good vantage point, and watches the whole proceedings with a variety of emotions. I have had one myself which perhaps shows my interest in the scientific studies now being set in motion. NDEs are somewhat nebulous and descriptions of bright lights, tunnels etc cannot be investigated. The current studies being undertaken concern the more definite Out-of-Body experiences (OBEs) which may be checked and verified as in the case of Dr Lommels paper.

Investigations continue on an international level.