General Chat

Hi today I went to order the marriage cert of James Simcock and Harriet Hancock who I knew to be married in 1861(I don't know the exact day and month just the year).
The young man had no problem locating it, but when I said I wanted it to verify James parents he said that sometimes the cert didn't name the parents,which rather disappointed me.
He explained that he was new to the post and that he had once given info and got reprimanded for it, I did feel sorry for him cos he was such a pleasant young man and I certainly wouldn't want to get him into trouble.
In the past the marriage certs that I got had the parents names on them, whats the odds this one wont have that info on and has anyone had the same problem

I have never heard of the parents names not being on the marriage cert,,maybe father's name was missing but I think the lad was maybe thinking you wanted him to give the parents names to you there and then,

Did you get the cert or are you getting it posted to you.??,

I have never had that problem when I have picked up any certs from the Register office.

Is this UK?
I have never found a mother named on an English marriage certificate, but usually the father is.
A gap in that column may indicate that the person is illegitimate, although some people covered this fact by 'inventing' a father, who is then usually shown as deceased.

Did the young man find the actual record, or just the index reference?

Gwyn

Was this marriage in Leek, Staffordshire? If so then being an English certificate it will only name the fathers of the couple (unless they were illegitimate). English marriage certificates don't name mothers.

Kath. x

One of my ancestors has no father's name on her marriage certificate - just 'deceased' under father's name - that was in England in 1901 - He was deceased.

Hi, thanks ladies, yes it is an English certificate, I've not had this problem before and that's what surprised me.
I've paid for it but I'll have to pick it up possibly on Thursday as that's my day off.
I did wonder whether he was about to tell me and then remembered he shouldn't.
Yes Gwyn he found it quiet quickly from the index reference, in a way as long as I can verify his fathers name I will be happy, if, by some fluke I get the mothers name too that will be a bonus

Yes...I wonder if he was about to tell you more than he should.

Good luck.
The witness names may help too.

Gwyn

Pauline, where are you ordering the cert? The GRO is cheapest, I understand. The marriage of James and Harriet was registered in the Sept quarter of 1861, that is, between 1 July and 30 Sept, although if they were m in late June it might have been reg in July.

I dont know if you have info from the censuses. I have been looking on them and James and Harriet both seem to have been b in Horton. Harriet's parents were possibly Enoch and Charlotte. Jame's y.o.b. varies from 1834 to 1838. There is a b reg for a James Simcock in the March quarter of 1839. If that is him then his parents might be Benjamin and Lettice Simcock, but there seem to have been lots of Simcocks in that area of Staffordshire. If you dont have access to the censuses I can give you the info I have.

Huia.

Pauline,

Just to be clear:-

For England and Wales, you will never get the mother's name on a marriage cert, by fluke or otherwise. Mother's name will only ever appear on a birth certificate.

Father's name may or may not appear on either marriage or birth cert.

Hi HuiaTooHot and InspectorGreenPen so sorry not to have replied sooner work is getting in the way of doing what I want to do lol.
HuiaTooHot I would like to take you up on your kind offer if that would be ok, thank you so very much.
InspectorGreenPen I have the birth cert of my gt grandfather William Simcock and on it it names James and Harriet as being his parents what I was hoping to verify was the names of Jame's parent and it would have been nice to get one name at least, as I've yet to pick up James marriage cert I just about crossed everything that could be crossed lol

On the 1891 census we have
Simcock, James, Head, Married, aged 57, Farmer, b Horton, Staffs.
Simcock, Harriet, Wife, M, 54, b Horton, Staffs
William, Son, M 24, Farmers son, b Horton, Staffs
Simeon, son, Single, 16, Farmers son, b Leek, Sts.
Joyce R, dau., S, 12, b Leek
Harriet, dau, S, 10, b Hanley, Staffs.
Salt, Alfred, servant, single, 11, Farm Lab. b Tadderedge, STS.

No sign of William's wife.

1901 (almost missed it out)
James, 65, Farmer
Harriet, 64
Joyce Rose, 22
DRAKEFORD, John Wm, servant 25 Cattleman on farm
MOUNTFORD, Enoch, Adopted Son, 13, Assistant cattleman on farm b Norton in the Moors.

In 1911 Harriet (the mother) is a widow aged 74, Old Age Pensioner.

In 1881 there is a son Enoch, single, 17, Coal Miner, b Norton Le Moors, Sts.
Also a son Jesse, 9 Scholar, b Leek
In 1871 a dau. Roseanna, 2, presumably this is Joyce R.

More to come.

Huia.

In 1861 there are 2 James Simcocks, one in the Gadsall, Horton, in the reg dist of Leek, the other in Smallthorne, Norton in Leek. Because we have varying ages for him on the various censuses I cant be 100% sure which is yours. In Smallthorne Norton, he is aged 20. a coalminer, married to Emily, 18, formerly nurse. There is also a dau Laura A aged 3 months. It is always possible that Emily died soon after, and he married Harriet Simcock a few months later. That would need to be looked into.

The other James in Gadsall, Horton, is the son of Benjamin, 58, AgLab, b Horton and his wife Louisa, 60.
They also have a son Henry, unmarried (like James on this), aged 20, Ag Lab., and a dau Hannah, Unm. 30 and Ann Simcock, granddaughter aged 9, and Sarah another gr dau aged 5. I dont know if they are the children of the unmarried dau Hannah, or of some m son who is elsewhere on this census with his wife.

I have not found that family in 1851. I would need to try a bit of magic.

In 1841 Benjamin is 40 (ages were rounded down for adults to nearest 5), a collier
Lettice, 40 ,
John, 13,
Hugh, 7
James, 2
Harriot, 9


1861
Hancock, Charlotte, Head, Widow, 44, b Norton, staffs
Harriet, dau, unm, 23, dressmaker, b Norton
William, son, unm, 17, coalminer, b Endon
Joseph, son, 14, coal miner, b endon
John, son, 12, scholar, b Endon
Elizabeth, dau, 11, scholar, b Endon
Hannah, dau, 7, b Endon

I dont seem to have them on 1851, maybe I just missed that year.

1841
Enoch, 25, collier
Charlotte, 20,
Harriot, 3
Elisabeth, 1
Joseph, 2 weeks.

Sorry I dont do as neat a job as other people who post census info on here. I hope it helps anyway.

I will go now and have a look on 1851

Huia

Hi Huia thanks for your time,I know the Smallthorne Simcocks aren't mine( I went down that route even found their graves before I realized they weren't mine).
Today I went and picked up James and Harriet's marriage cert, they were married on the 26th August 1861 and found James father to be Benjamin a laborer and Harriet's father, Enoch, was a miner.
You mention a Henry, on the cert it states that one of the witnesses was one Henry Simcock and the other witness is a Hannah (looks like) Mumford
On the cert it has James and Harriet as both being 23 making them born in 1838.
Just looking at your reply I notice an Hannah she could be the witness who, although not married at 30, was at the time of James and Harriet's marriage.
As far as Harriets family are concerned looking at the cert and having Enoch,census 1841, it does seem that these are the right people for her.
Thanks for your time and trouble you've done a fantastic job in finding them for me.
Many many thanks Pauline

It has not been too difficult, Pauline. I currently have a 6 months sub to FMP, so I have enjoyed looking people up on the censuses and sometimes checking out freeBMD.
Dont take their ages on the cert as gospel. As I said before, James has different ages on different censuses. I think in those days people were a bit hazy about their ages, or they deliberately falsified them to make them look older/younger.

They also sometimes change their first name, just to confuse us. In 1841 Benjamins wife was Lettice. In 1861 it was Louisa. Perhaps Lettice died and Ben remarried, or perhaps Lettice hated her name, or perhaps the transcriber could not read it clearly and guessed.

I will now go to freeBMD and look for a marriage for Hannah in 1861, and for a possible death of Lettice and then a remarriage of Ben.

Huia.

Hi Pauline, I have marriage certs that haven't got the father's name on, if they are over the age of consent, the father's name may not be included

hi ya . i have been looking for my gnanx gdad but when i lokk for ggrandad there is no maiden name ov his mum on certificate and i cant find a marriage liscence for them ether. is that the norm i hope not as i cant go back with the family tree

sorry spelling is awful.