General Chat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13613060

Don't know what to make of this - Barnsley are fining anyone caught swearing in public £80.

Obviously it is off-putting when someone's effing and blinding next to you in a queue or on the bus or whatever, but isn't there a Freedom of Speech issue here? Just feels a bit 1984-ish to me...

I think there used to be a Law against it at one time,same as Spitting in the street etc,some one on here is bound to know.**M**. :-S

Surely Freedom of Speech is about being able to express an opinion, not freedom to use profane language in public.
:-S

No, actually, freedom of speech is the freedom to speak.

That doesn't mean that our predecessors who came up with the idea wouldn't be appalled at what it's used to protect these days, because they really were thinking of opinions about public issues.

The whole idea of rights and freedoms is that we can't be told what we use our own for -- unless there is good justification for telling us what we may not use them for.

There are loads of restrictions on speech.

You may not lie under oath in court.
You may not advertise snake oil to cure cancer.

for instance. There is a general agreement that these restrictions are justified because of a higher public interest (to simplify it), and the courts are there to decide whether that applies.

The concern in this case seems to be not just propriety, but the fact that people are intimidated.

____________________________________________

Phil Davies, from Barnsley Voice, said:
"There is nothing wrong with swearing - I do it every day -
but it is when it is targeted at somebody."

Insp Julie Mitchell of South Yorkshire Police said:
"It is important to note that some people feel upset and
intimidated from hearing swearing.
____________________________________________


It's interesting to note cultural differences. Hateful speech is another similar situation.

In the United States, people who face hateful speech directed at them in the media or on the streets are told to shut up and put up. Other people's freedom to say whatever they want trumps their ability to feel safe in their own society. This reflects the general attitude of "you're not the boss of me" that prevails there.

In Europe, things tend to go more the other way. The feeling is that society does have a legitimate interest in what gets said in public. Europe has seen what words can lead to.

Canada, well, we take a middle road. ;)


The Barnsley situation might make a good law school exam question!

Seems strange when a couple of years ago the high court in the land deemed swearing and the word F*** ,was no longer an offence,but there you go ,and hey ,We are talking Yorkshire he he.
Badger will get an earful ,for this comment his bro' in law being a Tyke .lol :-)

JaneyC, we are off to Canada in a few weeks, must do a bit of public swearing and see what happens ...
Jan

You can pick up a Tshirt, brummiejan!

Do not click here if you are at work or a sensitive soul. (This is a legitimate commerce, not porn, have no fear.)

... Oh, this is proving difficult ... lots of legitimate commerces to choose from, but all the sites that sell the one I have in mind have the slogan in their url so I can't post it here ... even though it is a time-honoured bit of Cdn culture (Wayne Gretzky could be seen to shout it when Canada scored the winning goal against the US a couple of Olympics ago) ... Here we go, women's plus size (no personal comment intended!):

http://www.cafepress.ca/nimirra.114841806

Conversely, you will also be able to go completely topless wherever you may be -- as long as it isn't a restaurant that says "no shirt no shoes no service" or such. An Ontario court struck down the discriminatory application of public nudity laws about a decade ago.

So I dunno, maybe you were suggesting I should keep my nose out? Not like it hasn't been said before.

People swear in public in Canada quite regularly. If I happen to have the misfortune of being on a city bus full of high school students (or even elementary school students), I do find their language tedious. Mostly I find them tedious, of course, their language is just the manifestation of their tediousness.

So as to what happens, well, if you swing from the grab bars on a bus while swearing at the top of your lungs, the driver may put you off. Other than that, not much, I think I can assure you.

I'm sure it's the same most places in the UK ...

Not that I ever suggested that it might not be justifiable to treat such behaviour as a problem that might be legitimately sanctioned in certain circumstances. You did read past my first sentence?

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." Goethe (1749 - 1832) .

And Goethe hadn't even met our modern-day USAmericans, with their freeeeeedom ... and their Patriot Act, and their homeless and their millions with no healthcare coverage ...

;-)

The world is going overboard with PC rubbish. They are going to pass a similar law in Victoria, Australia:

Obnoxious Swearing Is About to Be Illegal in Australia

According to the Sydney Morning Herald, police officers will be able to hand out fines that amount to the American equivalent of $257 if they deem a citizen’s language unacceptable. The legislation is supposed to make life easy for police officers, although it seems like the state of Victoria is taking a censorship cue from middle schools and professional sports – the only other place I know where people are fined for bad language.

This is worse than not being able to chew gum in Singapore.

Victorian Attorney General Robert Clark said the penalties will be similar to those handed out for speeding or parking tickets, and it would free up police time.

“This will give the police the tools they need to be able to act against this sort of obnoxious behavior on the spot, rather than having to drag offenders off to court and take up time and money in proceedings,” said Attorney General Clark. “Occasionally I mutter things under my breath, as probably everybody does. But this law is not targeted at that, it’s targeted at the sort of obnoxious, offensive behavior in public that makes life unpleasant for everybody else.”

So saying shit, fuck, damn, ass, or penis in an obnoxious fashion is about to be treated the same as a speeding ticket? Driving your car too fast can result in a serious accident and possible death. Getting caught doing that kind of shit gets points taken off your license and increases your car insurance. Since when did screaming “penis” in a public park hurt anyone? What’s next? Are cops going to be able to wash mouths out with soap?

How exactly is this supposed to free up time for cops to do real police work when they’re writing people cursing citations after someone falls off their bike? We all know certain Aussies enjoy using foul language (cough Mel cough). And what about all those slang words that Aussies have? Will the Vegemite sandwich-eaters using Men At Work vocab be punished with a $257 fine? Or is the state of Victoria simply trying to shut up the crude, loud-mouthed tourists? Is this anti-American? Am I getting angry for absolutely no reason?

I have no idea anymore, but I do know I’m absolutely incensed about a law in a country I’ll probably never visit. And like any good American, I’ll be exercising my freedom to curse obnoxiously the next time a cab driver deliberately gets stuck in traffic to run the meter.

Bet it only applies to |English speakers!

Annie in NZ, you copied and pasted that, and I'd go back and edit it before somebody hits the Report as Abuse link. Check the language. This here isn't "public" space, you know! ;-)


I don't know why you'd call this "PC". The things usually called "PC" involve people actually wanting to exercise rights. I guess this is what it's come to. Anything somebody thinks is dumb is "PC".


brummiejan -- I guess it would depend on who was listening and what language they spoke, no?

If a tree falls in a forest ... :-D

It will be a sad day for the Australian language is the word Bl**dy is outlawed. Millions of Australians will be without a major portion of their vocabulary.

And for golly gee whizz would someone please get Annie in NZ to edit her post.

Now that really is the best example of a dictionary of Australian language I have seen for a long time!!!!

My mother always used to say, "swearing is a sign of a deficient vocabulary", then she met my OH. And she knew she was right.

The article Annie in NZ quoted is, of course, from a US source.

Its slant is worth noting:

"Driving your car too fast can result in a serious accident and possible death. "

Actually, no. Hitting something or someone with your car can result in property damage / personal injury/death.

Driving fast doesn't "result in" anything except getting where you're going faster.

USAmericans who worship at the feet of "free speech" think that it trumps everything else in the world. They think they win any argument by screeching Free Speech!

Ask them whether they think it should be legal to lie under oath, or shout "fire" in a crowded theatre where there is no fire, and they'll contort themselves wonderfully so they can say "no", and still make no sense. They just want *speech that they don't like* to be illegal, making them just like a lot of other people.

There can be just as much of a connection between speech and death as there is between speeding and death. Someone who broadcasts incitements to genocide is no less guilty of the resulting deaths than someone who speeds and is unable to stop if a child runs out in front of their car.

Not that I'm supporting laws against swearing in public.

Just that I think maybe the issue is being simplified a little, and it is the entire conduct in question that is the problem.

Should I have no choice but to get off the bus, if there are 20 punk kids fouling the air my 5-yr-old is breathing with their language? If they want to use that language, maybe they should get off the bus.


Oh, and I swear. A lot. You should read me at sites that don't have rules like this one.

But not at the top of my lungs on the bus.