General Chat

Good points, Maggie. But I challenge two things you have said.

1. I think fraud and theft are the same whether it is 10p or £10million. A shoplifter with a 50p bar of chocolate has committed no less a crime than someone with a Plasma TV. Theft is theft. Fraud is fraud.
2. Very many small businesses are paying VAT. Some even register voluntarily because it makes their business look more impressive when pitching to clients.
And if we know they are knocking VAT off their price, does not that make the company and the customer fraudsters who have thieved off the Exchequer?

Not sure about my last point, but - if right - a lot of us are due a spell at HM's pleasure :-(

John, anything can become illegal - strangely tax avoidence isn't. It's as fine a line as the government want to make it - and they don't.

A cash in hand job is rarely on a par with millionaires who take from society but refuse to pay for the priviledge, preferring to hold an offshore account!!!

Many small businesses don't earn enough to pay VAT.

The Government are NOT on the tail of the high earners, or they would be chasing their own tails.

Maggie. I never mentioned tax evasion, I said tax avoidance can become illegal. It is a fine line.

The low paid tend to have similar personalities to the high paid. And I am low paid but I certainly like to avoid tax. I spend a lot on shares, life assurance, pension - and all monies are stopped before tax is applied.

A lot of low paid workers now do a second job for cash in hand. Lot of small businesses are happy not to put jobs through the books and not have to pay VAT on that job.

The Government does seem to be on the tail of the high earners. But I feel sure there is a lot to be collected from the fairly low earners too.

Yes, that is so true Maggie. Were we starting out now we would never be able to afford to buy. Not if we had the same jobs we had then.

:-D Ann - now only the very rich can afford to buy their own house!!

Times have changed haven't they? For the better I'm sure. When I was young, roughly speaking blue collar workers and manual workers were, I think, considered working class, white collar workers, clerical and professional were considered middle class. Also ( please remember I am talking post war maybe pre war too) I think in those days those living in council houses were mainly considered and considered themselves working class while the middle classes bought their own accommodation. As times changed the lines have become blurred and the classes merged. As I said times changed for the better. From a class point of view that is.

Just my perception of course.

Have to say, a couple of the caravans were lovely - especially the 'Showman's' caravan in Kirkpatrick Fleming. :-D

Have to add, was I 'lower class' and less intelligent when I worked in the fish factory, or as an ag lab, than since 1999, when I got my degree?
I was a bloody sight happier (if somewhat smellier & sweatier) being a fishwife & ag lab than I am now, pushing paper.
...and I'm (in relative terms) not earning much more pay-wise

I have to agree with you Maggie, again! :-D

John,
Tax Evasion is illegal.
Tax avoidance is one of the perks of the very wealthy - including a lot of politicians/politicians friends & family - hence despite governments saying they'll do something about it - but don't. Much easier to pick on the poor.
Unlike the well-heeled, the poor don't fund political parties for millions of pounds - and then claim the tax back!!

I don't know what 'class' I belong to. But anyone who looks down their nose at me soon gets short shrift - they may think they belong to a better 'class' than me, but they're downright ignorant :-P

On the thread 'where have you lived', it can be seen that I've lived in many different types of 'abode'.
Was I a better 'class' of person when I lived in the detached house, as opposed to the tent/caravan? Was I more intelligent when I lived in a house?
Did people try to treat me differently? Was it where I lived or my accent/dialect - never 'quite right' for the place I was living.

It's largely a classless society in Australia. We are well known for chopping "tall poppies" down to size. I'm sure that there are people who think they are a cut above everyone else but anyone who puts on airs and graces would be laughed at by most people :-)

Don't get the impression that people feel any less cross about the feckless Lord Wimseys as the feckless jobless. Main difference is that Lord Wimsey does not sponge off us. He has income (unearned) and he spends it, pays taxes accordingly and contributes to the economy.

And same about tax avoiders. If there are legal loopholes and we can minimise our tax with allowances, establishing supply companies in other countries etc, then it is not always the fault of a business or an individulal if they earn sufficient to make tax avoidance worthwhile. If I was very wealthy and had the choice of paying £50k tax to Mr Osborne or £50k to a charity close to my heart, I would tryy to free money up for my charity.

But if tax avoidance is found to be illegal, whether they earn £50miliion a year or £15k a year - it is a criminal offence of fraud. And who on Genes disagrees with that? I've not seen anyone yet.

We may not know the lifestyle/class of people on Genes, but many seem to follow the beliefs of the Daily Mail.
Whenever benefits and the unemployed are mentioned, out come the phrases 'Benefit Fraud', 'cheats', 'feckless' etc.

Which I find amazing, as tax evasion costs the Treasury 15 times more than benefit fraud, yet people seem quite happy for the government to lower the already paltry jobseekers,& benefit, (that'll teach the scroungers who can't get a job - mainly because there aren't any).

But accept that those who were lucky enough to have an inheritance or overpaid job, should avoid paying tax in this country (they've earned it honestly - including, apparently the bankers - why should they pay taxes like the rest of us)

My father told me on several occasions that to be born a lady or a gentleman was by an accident of your birth, but die a lady or gentleman was due to your own achievement and a reflection of the way you live your life and conduct yourself.

He was not speaking of those recognised for this distinction by the Queen, My father was one of natures true gentleman.

Love that clip Rollo ! :-D

Seriously though, class has nothing to do with money, lifestyle or even occupation.

When my father was working as a floor layer after leaving the army, he was working on the house of a GP. When asked a question by the doctor my father replied 'Yes Sir' .
The doctor then said ' no need to call me Sir, we are both working people.'

Not sure that Cleese sketch is so funny today. Who would we replace them with?

For me, Ed Milliband is the upper class toff. Tall, nose in air
Vince Cable is Ronnie Barker
And Nadine Dorries wears the flat cap ;-)

Can't possibly post at the moment as I have to go down to see Cook to discuss the menu's for the rest of the week

Then dress for dinner. So please do forgive me and will pop back later. ;-)

I am working class as are all my family, past and present. My OHs family are also working class.
:-D

all u need to know really

http://www.uknowotimean.com/funny-stuff/top-25-sketches/cleese-barker-corbett/

I tend to think of 'working class' as those who work with their hands, rather than in an office, but that it probably now outdated. After all, if all you take is earnings, a good plumber could have a better life style than an office manager

From the Ipsos (market research) site, class is derived by the occupation of the chief income earner

Social Grade of Chief Income Earner
Source: NRS 2008 (unweighted sample 37,359, estimated population 15+ (000s) 49,077

E - unemployed with state benefits only, State pensioners, casual or lowest grade workers,
D - Semi and unskilled manual workers
C2 - Skilled manual workers
Supervisory, clerical and junior managerial,
C1 - administrative or professional
B - Intermediate managerial, administrative or professional
A - High managerial, administrative or professional

My mum always said what AnnC said. I work, I am working class.

But she was like Hyacinth Bucket, always had a mirror by front door and checked her hair etc before she opened the door. And we had a middle class life style.

Studied class in my student days, but not at all sure what it is. I remember a village in the Lake District. And this sociology book suggested there were nine strata of society in this small village.

Yes, Genes does seem classless. I wonder if there are toffs on here. Anyone who rubs shoulders with royalty? One has a connection (quite a close one) to royalty ;-)

No, not who you think - having Empress or Princess as your board name does not imply........