General Chat

My neighbour's children are both at St Andrews, starting their 3rd and 4th years respectively. Both are doing science subjects, although I don't know exactly which ones.

Both were sent home in March and have only just gone back. They have had online tuition and were doing as much work as if they were actually on campus. I asked their Mum about end of year exams (thinking of practical stuff) and she said they had done those online as well.

Both are "home birds" and think this is a great way to study - like being at school. :-)

Cleaners and dining hall staff will be earning with students at uni whereas they would not otherwise be. Another of the many tiny parts of the economy that need to be taken into consideration when drafting legislation through an unprecedented time.

The young right down to 0 are just as susceptible to picking up the covid-19 as anybody else. The difference is that in the main children do not express much in the way of synptoms. Unfortunateky they spread the virus very effectively. This was well known before children and young people returned to school/uni in September/October. Hence the fear of many teachers esp those over 55 a good chunk of whom have opted for early retirement - making staffing even more difficult.

There is no prospect of a widely available vaccine for at least a year.

Just how a half baked government with next to no expertise in anything will cope is difficult to see especially with the joys of brexit added in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9K7fueW4Bk

Supposed to be Sharron but try telling that to my pal's granddaughter who was really ill with it.

Also, the staff in student dining halls are not often young - a similar age to uni cleaners. A lot of them who do such jobs have children and the hours fit around school timetables.

I have to admit to a huge amount of dismay about the decision.

Are the young not less susceptible to the virus?

I understand what you mean, Sharron, but people movement and spread of virus is what brought lockdown in March.

If unis had put most courses online (which some have now done anyway) they would still have got the £9000+ tuition fee from each student. Staff salaries could still have been paid but perhaps rises would have been curtailed as would the purchase of some non-essential items that some unis buy as a hedge against inflation.

By getting students through the doors into uni accommodation they have ensured spread of the virus to their own staff, both academic and non-academic and therefore to the wider public.

I think it was atrocious behaviour and I do not believe that all academics agreed with their bosses - more now since some have succumbed to the virus, no doubt.

If it had been a company moving more than two million staff around the country there would have been a lot more disquiet, government resistance and horror at such a decision.

It is such a shame that the young were used in this way, I think.

In the UK university education ( for want of a better name ) no longer has much to do with education. Instead it is a massive financial racket based on the never ending student loans which are in part used to finance the gleaming student accomodation towers which have sprouted up in many towns and cities.

If the students did not take up their accomodation then the whole racket would come crashing down. ( As has happened with the railway privatisations where obscure companies made billions out of train leasing contracts. )

Even pre-covid it was a lucky student who found themselves in a seminar class of 6 or fewer led by a real academic and not a junior lecturer. On line studying of pretty well anything at degree level is a contradiction in terms. Many students, not only in the UK, are asking for a refund and I don't blame them.

I wouldn't like to say, JoyLouise, I don't have all the information I would need to come to a decision.

Those two million people have to be somewhere, those universities need to carry on being viable,as do the businesses that depend on the educational establishments.

So much more to consider..

I only have one grandchild at school now, Caroline, and he has to wear a mask all day too - apart from when he's eating lunch, of course.

Here in Ontario at least we have all college and Uni students doing online studies have done since March. Even many labs are being done online not perfect but doable in fact my daughter spent part of the summer doing research with one of her prof working out how labs could be done online using only things available to anyone around the world even resorting to types of candy available anywhere! That said...many students have chosen to go to residents etc and guess what they are getting COVID big time.
Schools depending on where you live depends on masks...here all children have to wear mask even the 4yr olds all day.

But Sharron, wouldn't you have thought twice about moving more than two million people around the country?

We have at least one thousand students and some academics with covid now in our small city. No one expects that number to stay static either.

Absolutely nobody has had experience of a global pandemic before but they have all had experience of running whatever it is they run and they need to look out for the economics of it.

We can all run a tiny little bit of the problem better than those who are having to run something huge and complex while dealing with a unknown and overwhelming problem with an eye to keeping it viable after the pandemic.

I'd add to Caroline's post.

When it is not unknown for 4, 6 or 10 students to share cooking facilities, fridge and even more sharing laundry facilities, it beggars belief that anyone could expect them not to mix outside. It is the same when second and third years move out and share houses (eight in one house in my granddaughter's second year).

My pal is angry that her granddaughter has been very ill with covid and confined in her uni room with her parents unable to take her home because she must isolate. She is one of those students who has no choice because she is studying biomedical sciences and needs to use the labs. But how different and easier uni heads could have made things by opting for online tutorials for thousands of students who do not need to use labs. Those who neded to be in would have had more space with unshared facilities for many.

My niece was lucky as my sis rang up and asked about online tutorials before niece picked up her key so she is very happily studying at home.

If uni heads feel obliged to follow government recommendations I think that they were wrong to do so on this occasion but I have to add my suspicions that it was all a matter of income from student rents that was likely to have been a big factor in their decision.

That would be perfection but the best we can hope for,I think,is some kind of Utilitarianism.

What you describe would be true Communism which has only really been achieved a couple of times in small comunities.

A representative democratic government should not need to "quell disorder on the streets". Either you have government by consent aka democracy or you do not. There is no middle way.

Another good aspect to those troops being in care homes is they found where things needed improving..they've submitted a detailed list of care homes that require help and some have been taken over by hospitals for now.

To the OP where do you draw the line if you allow pubs to open it's hard to stop people getting drunk and gathering in the street at closing time whenever that may be. We've taken the other approach as numbers went back up we've closed indoor eating and drinking at bars etc not great for businesses but easier than trying to stop the gatherings you're seeing in Liverpool etc. We've had big gathering during the summer and the police have taken to filming it and then issuing fines using license plates etc, only issuing on the spot fines for the more serious offenses to stop rioting. Obviously this way unless you're known to the police most people get off.

Trained policemen and women are not available down at the local job centre.

The Cameron/May administrations cut the police force budget by 20 000 and on top drastically reduced pay for starters and those with less than 5 years service. May got the bird at two successive police AGMs which is to say the least unusual for a Tory Home Secretary. Johnson has promised to increase police numbers but progress is very slow 'cos of lack of budget and poor credibility of the employer. Interestingley few of the lost 20 000 have rejoined.

May, Patel do not seem able to grasp that there is no UK national police force at the beck and call of the Home Secretary. There are about 30 forces under local democratic control. Control of the London Met is with the GLC though appointment of the boss is shared with the Home Secretary. Only the police have an unrestricted power of arrest.

The no.1 function of the police is not, as many believe, to investigate crime (though of course it is important) but to "uphold the Queen's peace". It is this power that enables them to clear the streets on a Friday night. Baton charges, rubber bullets and water cannon are def. not on the UK police agenda though BoJo is quite keen having spent millions on water cannon as London mayor.

When it comes to large scale civil disorder against the government of the day then that is anoather matter Going back over 150 years the police have generally chosen a light touch working closely with the local polica authority. That is why they do not need guns the police are a part of the community in which they serve.

The army simply doesn't have a role. Running a para military police force backed up by the Army was hardly a roaring success in Northern Ireland. Only a fool would suggest any move towards such a thing in the rest of the UK.

To little to late as always with our Goverment they couldn't run a pu in a brewery :-P

Daft idea Rollo then get more police recruited Boris wants to put urgent plan in action to quell the unrest on the streets it will get worse believe me

The army contributed a lot if help with logistics, physical and expertise, earlier this year. That is right and proper. Squaddies on the street is something else completely. Neither the police nor the army envisage such a daft idea.