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Hi all,
I am trying to find some information of one of my relatives who was in WW1. He name was James Charles Saunders from Birmingham and the belief is that he might have tried to enlist twice, the first time when he was under age however was successful the second time.
From the research done already, I believe he may have been KIA on the 22/03/1918 and had an army number of 37789 (sorry not sure of the correct terminology).
The address listed on the notice of his death is correct and consistent with other family members (164 Hospital Street, Bham) however I am really trying to piece as much together about him as possible.
Can anyone point me in the right direction please?
Many Thanks
Scott
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British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Transcription - discharge
Print transcription View image
First name(s) James Charles
Last name Saunders
Service number PW4516
Regiment Middlesex Regiment
Unit / Battalion 25th, 26th Battalion
Event year 1916
Age 18
Birth year 1898
Birth town Birmingham
Birth county Warwickshire
Birth country England
Residence town Birmingham
Residence county Warwickshire
Series WO 363
Record set British Army Service Records 1914-1920
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory First World War
Collections from Great Britain
James Charles Saunders
in the British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Record Image View
View Packet Cover
Report issue
Name: James Charles Saunders
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1897
Age: 18
Document Year: 1915
Residence Place: 26 Court 4 House Hospital St, Birmingham
Regimental Number: 4516
Regiment Name: Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex) Regiment
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Number of Images: 12
Other Records: Search for 'James Charles Saunders' in other WWI collections
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
James Charles Saunders Self (Head)
Sarah Elizabeth Saunders Mother
intended address 26 ----- 4 house, hospital street
a dipper in the brass trade
service 30/12/1915 - 23/05/1916
discharged under age, not due to military service
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James Charles Saunders
in the UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947
Record Image View
Report issue
Name: James Charles Saunders
Age: 19
Birth Date: abt 1899
Death Date: 22 Mar 1918
Cemetery: Pozieres Memorial
Burial Country: France
Mother: Mrs Sarah Elizabeth Saunders
Regiment: Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Regimental Number: 37789
Region or Memorial: France
Other Records: Search for 'James Charles Saunders' in other WWI collections
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From the Commonwealth War Graves site:-
SAUNDERS, JAMES CHARLES
Rank:Private
Service No:37789
Date of Death:22/03/1918
Age:19
Regiment/Service:Royal Warwickshire Regiment
2nd/7th Bn.
Panel Reference: Panel 18 and 19.
Memorial:POZIERES MEMORIAL
Additional Information:Son of Mrs. Sarah Elizabeth Saunders, of 164, Hospital St., Birmingham.
Kath. x
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records found on ancestry and find my past
1911
Name: James Saunders
Age in 1911: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Search Photos: Search for 'Birmingham' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street address: 12 Ct 8 H Cowper St Birmingham
Registration district: Birmingham
Registration District Number: 384
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Piece: 18085
Household Members:
Name Age
James Saunders 33
Sarah Saunders 32
James Saunders 12
Ernest Saunders 10
Sarah Saunders 6
Alice Saunders 4
Andrew Saunders 3/12
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The 1911 census:-
1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
12 Court 8 H Cowper St B'Ham, Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
James Saunders Head Married Male Fitters Labourer 33 1878 Bristol Glos
Sarah Saunders Wife Married Female - 32 1879 Stafford Staffs
James Saunders Son - Male School 12 1899 Birmingham Warwickshire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ernest Saunders Son - Male - 10 1901 Birmingham Warwickshire
Sarah Saunders Daughter - Female - 6 1905 Birmingham Warwickshire
Alice Saunders Daughter - Female - 4 1907 Birmingham Warwickshire
Andrew Saunders Son - Male - 0 1911 Birmingham Warwickshire
Parents had had 6 children. 5 living in 1911 and 1 had died.
Kath. x
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UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929
James R Saunders (Image says James E Saunders!)
Gender: Male
Death Date: 22 Mar 1918
Rank: Private
Regiment: 2/7 Royal Warwicks
Regimental Number: 37789
£17 6s 2d paid to mother Sarah E - authorised on 3/3/20 & includes £7 War Gratuity.
In the column headed No.of List in which advertised, it was at Fa(ther's?) request.
Date of death 22/3/18 matches with the CWGC entry, with the added notation 'Presumed dead'.
........
WWI Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920
James C Saunders
Military Year: 1914-1920
Rank: Private
Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps: Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Regimental Number: 37789
Previous Units: 10th Bn. R. War. R. 37789 Pte., 2/7th Bn. R. War. R. 37789
Granted the Victory and British War medals
British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
James C Saunders
Regiment or Corps: Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Regimental Number: 37789
No additional info - sometimes they give the date when the soldier first entered a Theatre of War.
.....
Although it was fortunate to find the first set of service records when he was discharged as under-age, in the region of 70% were destroyed during WW2 bombing. His 'of age' records are probably amongst those.
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Thanks .
The fathers request bit is interesting as there is no reference to him father on the enlistment papers, it was all is mother.
I didn't know that James Saunders (James Thomas Luke Saunders) was involved in WW1.
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Please ignore the spelling, I composed the message from my iPhone ??
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Sorry? James Thomas Luke Saunders? He hasn't been been mentioned unless he was James Charles Saunders' father? Assuming the census found are correct with a yob c1878, he would have been young enough to have served in the forces. On the other hand, he may have been more useful to the war effort in his role as a Fitter.
You'll often find that a son gives his mum as NOK. It might be worth investigating if a husband was still responsible for his wife's money. He *might* have had to give permission for his wife to receive the payment rather than to receive it himself. As we haven't been able to find the 'of age' enlistment and service records, it's always possible that James C named his NOK as his father on those.
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Electoral Register, 1919 (Absent voters list) - West Birmingham Division
164 Hospital Street, St Pauls, West Birmingham
James Thomas Saunders 19197 Pte. 12th Worcs
James Childs Saunders 37789 Pte. 5th R.W.R
----------------------------------------
Electoral Register 1920
164 Hosptial Street. St Pauls, West Birmingham
James Thomas Saunders
Sarah Saunders
Ernest Henry Saunders
--------------------------------------------
Electoral Register 1925
164 Hosptial Street. St Pauls, West Birmingham
James Thomas Saunders
Sarah Elizabeth Saunders
Ernest Henry Saunders
----------------------------------------------
Electoral Register 1939
164 Hosptial Street. St Pauls, West Birmingham
Sarah Elizabeth Saunders
Christopher Saunders
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http://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/saunders-family-from-birmingham.41905/
(James Childs on above)
https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-84642.html?s=cf636e52e9c66318eba62890f137edfd
Chris :)
(also)
1939 Register (Find My Past)
164 Hospital Street , Birmingham C.B., Warwickshire, England
Christopher Saunders 11 May 1915 Male Brass Dresser Single
Hilda Hughes (Saunders) 19 May 1918 Female Sores Clerk Motor Accessories Single
Edna Bashford (Saunders) 02 Apr 1921 Female Hand Press Worker Single
Harold Saunders 19 Mar 1924 Male Sheet Metal Worker Single
Births Jun 1915 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Saunders Christopher Shute Birmingham 6d 551
Marriages Jun 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Saunders James Thomas L Birmingham 6d 182
Shute Sarah Ann Birmingham 6d 182
http://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/shute-saunders-family-look-up-birmingham-pls.11315/
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1901 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSZQ-8ZW
Event Place Aston, Warwickshire, England
County Warwickshire
Civil Parish Aston
Ecclesiastical Parish St James
Sub-District Duddeston
Registration District Aston
Residence Note Holt Street
Piece/Folio 2868 / 172 Page Number 10
James Sanders Head M 24 Bristol, Gloucestershire
Sarah Sandres Wife F 23 Stafford, Staffordshire
James C Sandres Son M 2 Birmingham, Warwickshire
Ernest H Sandres Son M 0[3/12] Birmingham, Warwickshire
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-warwickshire-regiment/
2/7th Battalion
Formed in Coventry in October 1914 as a second line battalion.
Record same as 2/6th Battalion.
2/6th Battalion
Formed in Birmingham in October 1914 as a second line battalion.Became part of 2nd Warwickshire Brigade, 2nd South Midland Division.
August 1915 : redesignated as 182nd Brigade, 61st (2nd South Midland) Division.
Landed in France on 21 May 1916.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/61st-2nd-south-midland-division/
The Battle of St Quentin~
The Actions at the Somme Crossings~
~ the battles marked ~ are phases of the First Battles of the Somme 1918
On 21 March 1918, the enemy launched what was intended to be a decisive offensive, attacking the British Fifth and Third Armies on the Somme in overwhelming strength. The 61st (2nd South Midland) Division was holding the forward zone of defences in the area northwest of Saint Quentin in the area of Ham [Ham is 20+ km SW of St Quintin] and lost many men as it fought a chaotic but ultimately successful withdrawal back over the Somme crossings over the next ten days. In the initial clash, the South Midland faced three enemy Divisions and only began to retire on the afternoon of 22 March, when ordered to do so in consequence of the enemy’s progress at other parts of the line.
I think JC would wait until his 18th b'day before enlisting - the legal min age.
Soldiers under 19 were not supposed to be sent overseas.
I don't know how strictly the rules were followed, bur in view of his history, they might well have been strictly applied in his case.
Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Saunders James Charles Birmingham 6d 24
The 1899q1 Birmingham births occupied pages 1-222 of the GRO registers. The page ranges of the various subdistricts was:
Lady Wood 1-13; St Martin 15-109; St George 111-172; All Saints 173-222.
One had 6 wks to rego a birth, but 2 wks was a more typical time, so it looks like JC was born around New Yrs Day, and probably went out in the first RWR draft in 1918.
He would certainly be in France by Feb 1918, as the British army underwent a major reorganization in Feb. Most battalions were understrength by then, and there wasn't enough manpower in the pipeline to remedy this, so abt a quarter of the battalions were disbanded, and there men sent to other bns. As a result, most divisions went from 12 bns down to 9 bns. All available drafts were used to bring these reorganized bns up to strength.
On the German side, they'd had an influx of seasoned troops following their defeat of Russia, and the US troops were still only partly trained, so in the spring of 1918, they had a brief window of superiority.
On March 21 1918, they launched a major offensive - Operation Michael - which eventually drove a salient 40 m deep in the British lines.
The Germans had 71 divisions facing 29 divs in Byng's 3rd Army & Gough's 5th army Gough's front was particularly weak - he'd just had to take over 14 m of French trenches which weren't organized for British defence.
Gough was seriously short of labour bns needed to dig new trenches in the French sector, and support trenches on the whole of his front, but Haig kept all the labour in the north, plus all the wire (Gough had miles of staked but unwired front).
The German build-up opposite Gough was observed, but Gough's warning of the impending attack - he even got the date right - was ignored.
The main German threat was the capture of the key rail junction at Amiens whose capture would effectively sever the communication between the British armies in the north and the French in the south.
Amiens was initially 40m behind the front line, but the Germans were stopped 10 m short of Amiens. However, heads had to roll over being caught so off-guard. Even though Gough had been complaining continuously for the last month over the situation facing him, the choice came down to Hag or Gough, so Haig decided Gough must go. I don't know how this was received generally, but Gough was not highly regarded by the Canadians - in fact, they refused to serve under him after his mishandling of them in 1916.
Well, that was the general picture of the battle in which your lad lost his life.
The 2/7th Warwick's war diaries describe what the unit was doing day-by-day. If you have an Ancestry sub, you can access these as follows:
Go to Ancestry and in the main banner bar, select Search - Card Catalog
then serach for: Title = war diaries
and select: "UK, WWI War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany), 1914-1920"
then search for:
Keyword = 1918
Regiment or Unit = Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Sub Unit = 2/7th battalion
I've not looked at this war diary, so just in case it arises, there are trench maps of this area (showing no trenches) at:
http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm
Ham is on Sheet 66d in square K.26 - a 1000 x 1000 yd square.
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4283/-/collection
A full map ref, e.g., of the bridge just SE of Ham would be Sheet 66d.K.32.b.1.7.
This has the form Sheet.SqLetter.SqNumber.quarter.easting.northing, where the square is divided into quarters, viz
a b
c d
and each quarter is stepped off in ten 50 yd steps (0-9), first stepping east, then stepping north.
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