Find Ancestors

I can find my great grandmother in the 1911 census, in Kensington, just before she married Robert Francis Mott in April 1911, but find no reference to her in 1901 or 1891. They went on to have my great aunt in October 1911. We know very little about her, except she already had 3 children: Mabel 1905, Doris 1906 and Frederick 1907 - we do not know their father's name and can find no reference to them even in 1911 census. What can I do now??

Thanks,
Melissa

Is this her? (For birthplace). Also, do you have her father's name from marriage cert?

PURKISS, William Head Married M 58 1853 Cab Driver Hildersham Cambs VIEW
PURKISS, Sarah Wife Married
34 years F 59 1852 Milden Hall Suffolk VIEW
HARRIS, Josephine Martha Boarder Single F 24 1887 Waitress London Whitechapel VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
172 Reference:
RG14PN172 RG78PN6 RD2 SD3 ED8 SN230

Registration District:
Kensington Sub District:
Kensington North Enumeration District:
8 Parish:
Kensington

Address:
295 Ladbroke Grove North Kensington W County:
London

Not too likely in view of location I think!!

1891 England Census

Name: Josephena M Harris
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Abraham Harris
Mother's name: Esther Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Stepney, London, England

Civil Parish: Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Blackburn
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Blackburn
Sub-registration district: Blackburn Northern

Abraham Harris 31
Esther Harris 25
Alexander C Harris 6
Josephena M Harris 4
Florence A Harris 2
Bertha Harris 5/12
e

Thank you Brummiejan, I hadn't seen the Blackburn one - it's possible I suppose although no one in my family has ever mentioned a Blackburn connection. I can look into it though.
The first entry is the one I have found which mentions Whitechapel, just before she gets married in 1911- but where are the 3 children?!
Are Stepney and Whitechapel near eachother?

No idea! Other thing - have you ever located a registration of her birth? I can only see one Josephine martha around that time and location:

Births Mar 1886 (>99%)
TREMA__ Josephine Martha Pancras 1b 50

But this is that one so stretching the point too far at this stage:

1891 England Census
about Josephine Tremaine
Name: Josephine Tremaine
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Bartholomew Tremaine
Mother's name: Catherine Tremaine
Gender: Female
Where born: St Pancras, London, England

Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Pentonville St Silas
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Pentonville
ED, institution, or vessel: 4a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Bartholomew Tremaine 30
Catherine Tremaine 28
Josephine Tremaine 5
Bartholomew Tremaine 4
William C Tremaine 3
George Tremaine 1

What about that marriage cert

jan

Do you know if her 3 children had middle names? Were they registered with Harris as their surname?
Katie

I like the 1891 Blackburn one. Whitechapel is in Stepney reg district and the family (minus Josephine) seems to be back in Fulham in 1901. Esther seems to have married??? a Frederick Wedgerfield.

If Abraham was from Poland his original surname probably wasn't Harris. I've tried looking for likely births in Stepney for the other children but no luck.

Maureen

Same family 1901:

1901 England Census
about Abraham Harris
Name: Abraham Harris
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Esther Harris
Gender: Male
Where born: Konin Palish Subject

Civil Parish: Woodville
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Charlton
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich

Abraham Harris 40
Esther Harris 38
Joseph Harris 18
Sarah Harris 16
Harriet Harris 14
Amelia Harris 12
Rachel Harris 10
Dora Harris 8
Sophia Harris 6
Bertha Harris 4
Leah Harris 1
Morris Segal 30

That doesn't look like the same family,Jan?
This is the one I was rambling on about:
1901 England Census about Bertha Wedgerfield
Name: Bertha Wedgerfield
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Frederick Wedgerfield
Mother's name: Esther Wedgerfield
Gender: Female
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England
:
Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: North West Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 15

Household schedule number: 117
Household Members:
Name Age
Frederick Wedgerfield 43
Esther Wedgerfield 36
Alexander Wedgerfield 15
Florence Wedgerfield 12
Bertha Wedgerfield 10
David Suradell 22

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 55; Folio: 117; Page: 20

Maureen

I don't think Esther and Fred were married as he seems to be single in 1911.

What about this???

Name: Josephine M Layton
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Jeffrey Layton
Mother's name: Florence Layton
Gender: Female
Where born: Whitechapel, London, England

Civil Parish: Tottenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Ann
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Tottenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Jeffrey Layton 37
Florence Layton 12
Florence D Layton 11
Annie L Layton 9
Constance V E Layton 7
Edward J Layton 5
Josephine M Layton 4
Mabel D Layton 1
Elizabeth Shepherd 22
Florence K Forster 11

There is a Mable and Florence so could this br why she chose them for her children

This is pointless really without her father's name, don't you think?

I agree,Jan.
Just in case he turns out to be Abraham,though:
Marriages Dec 1884 (>99%)
HARRIS Abraham Whitechapel 1c 775
Tate Esther Whitechapel 1c 775

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1891
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HARRIS Bertha Blackburn Northern Blackburn mmn TATE BN/22/7

Is Josephine's father's name not on her marriage certificate??

Having talked to my mum, she thinks the original Blackburn one may be the right family - she remembers an EasternEuropean connection but thought it was Russia, she also thinks there was a Jewish relation which would explain Abraham and Esther! The names of her sibling all appear in my grandmother and her brothers and sisters names - Doris Florence, Frederick Alexander and Bertha Irene. Too much of a coincidence?
She thought that Esther died though and Abraham remarried. However, I like the look of MaureeninNY's Wedgerfields as they have the same names...

Name: Robert F Mott
Year of Registration: 1911
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Kensington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 420
Spouse Josephine M Harris

Well,that does look interesting,Melissa!

When you get the marriage certificate let us know!

Just carrying on as though it was the right family...here are the 2 sisters in 1911:
1911 census transcription details for: 28 Bolton Road St Johns Wood N W
RG14PN621 RG78PN22 RD8 SD1 ED31 SN135


Reg. District: Hampstead Sub District: Hampstead
Parish: Hampstead Enum. District: 31
Address: 28 Bolton Road St Johns Wood N W
County: London
WOFFINGTON, Albert Head Married
1 years M 22 1889 Motor Driver Chauffeur Notting Hill Kensington
WOFFINGTON, Florrie Amelia Wife Married
1 years F 22 1889 London
WOFFINGTON, Albert Alexander Son M 0 (5 MONTHS) 1911
HARRIS, Bertha Victoria Sister In Law Single F 20 1891 Help At Home Blackburn
KEYES, Edward Percy Boarder Single M 22 1889 Motor Driver Chauffeur Furbridge Welts Kent
LAKE, Algernon Bernard Boarder Single M 23 1888 Motor Driver Chaffeur Gravesend
DALEY, Walter Reginald Visitor Single M 24 1887 Drapery Buyer Hanwell Middx


Name: Florrie Amelia Harris
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Spouse Name: Albert Woffington Occ:Chauffeur
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 16 Jan 1910
Parish: St Augustine, Paddington
County: London
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: Abraham Harris Occ:Tailor
Spouse Father Name: Albert Woffington Occ:Steward (deceased)

Were the 3 children born prior to Josephine's marriage registered with the name Harris???

Maureen

Wow, this is incredible! Hoe do you guys manage to find all this, I have been looking for days!?

Maureen - 3 children were all born prior to her marriage to Robert Mott in 1911, and she seems to have been pregnant with child 4 who was born in October 1911. I still cannot find any reference to her 3 children, who I know survived because they were all my grandmother, great aunt and great uncle and lived into 80s and 90s! She is in a boarding house in April 1911, listed as single and a waitress and then marries Robert in 1911 and has Bertha late 1911.
On a different note - where do I get marriage certificates from, as this seems to be the only way I can find stuff out?
Thanks for everyone's help!
Melissa

To answer your question about ordering the cert:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
You have to register,but it's pretty easy. Check the box saying you have the gro ref and use this:

Marriages Jun Qtr 1911
Harris Josephine M District Kensington Volume 1a Page Number 420
Mott Robert F Kensington 1a 420

(write it down EXACTLY as above. They get downright persnickety sometimes).

Good luck!!

Maureen