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Okay, I have another story. ;)

Births Mar 1853
Hope Ellen Elizabeth Bath 5c 735

I wonder whether the birth certificate says (or should have said) Hopes?


And in the foster parents' household in 1851:

Name: James Hopes
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Son (the eldest child per 1841 household in Corston)
Father's name: James Hopes
Mother's name: Emma Hopes
Where born: Corston, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Saltford

James Hopes 43 ag lab
Emma Hopes 43
James Hopes 18 ag lab
William Hopes 14
Edwin Hopes 12
Mark Hopes 8
Sarah Ann Hopes 4


There are three James Hopes marriages in Bath reg dist 1854-1863, for example. But I can't find this James in censuses after 1851.

I can't see Ellen Elizabeth Hope 1853 in the 1861 census, or marrying or dying.

The story is: (unmarried) father James Hopes died or deserted around the time of her birth. She was then known by her mother's surname ... but something happened and she went to live with her paternal grandparents, under her mother's surname, by which she was known ...


There actually is a Dixon in Saltford in 1851:

Name: Elizabeth Dixon
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Head - states married, no husband present
Where born: Saltford, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Saltford

Elizabeth Dixon 30
Emma Dixon 2 - born Saltford


Births Dec 1848
DIXON Emma Joanna Keynsham 11 116


I've found Emma and Elizabeth in 1861:

Name: Jacob Dison
[Jacob Dixon]
"This is Jacob Dixon born in Tockenham Wilts abt 1823. He is married to Elizabeth M Humphries. in Saltford Keynsham. BathBMD have the chidren born in Saltford registered as Dixon. She dies at the age of 42. Jacob remarries Maria Brentford q1 1886. Brentford"
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth M Dison
Where born: Totinham, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Shepton Mallet
Town: Shepton Mallet
County/Island: Somerset

Jacob Dison 42 - labourer
Elizabeth M Dison 42 - born Saltford, as are all children
Richard H Dison 18
Emma J Dison 11
John Dison 9
James W Dison 6

Births Sep 1851
Dixon John Keynsham 11 127
Births Dec 1854
Dixon James Humphries Keynsham 5c 689


Where was Jacob in 1851? Could my first notion have been right -- a bit of a scandal in Saltford? Jacob was away somewhere, Elizabeth was pregnant with her husband's child John at the time of the 1851 census; she then had a baby in Bath who was registered under her father's surname in Q1 1853 and landed the Hopes couple with it (perhaps James was still there then), her husband returned in time to father a child born in Q4 1854 ...

It's just a bit coincidental that this tiny little place has a Dixon household with the male head absent in 1851.

- edit - in 1851, the households on p. 20 of district 1 go: George Humphries (20), (Ollis, Vaughan,) James and Emma Hopes.


So ... that's story #2. ;)

Some of these stories turn out to be true, Barry. Besides my own Monck/Hill tale that I could make you read, many others hereabouts can attest to my and others' story-telling!

The idea is that when there are no matches that fit the box in front of one, one has to look outside that box.

I'm so terribly sorry about getting confused, Barry. That makes two of us now, I guess. Poor me and Ginny, we're just ditzes.

In fact, if I may presume to speak for Ginny, what it is, is that prose narratives of other people's families are hard to follow. What is easy to follow is reproductions of actual records. Like the census you were asked to post, and then GB posted. And like the marriage and death in question:

Marriages Mar 1878
DIXON Ellen Elizabeth Kensington 1a 141
PELLOW Frederick John Kensington 1a 141

Deaths Mar 1886
Pellow Ellen Elizabeth 32 Fulham 1a 197

Bingo. How easy, and how much easier for strangers to the tale to see, retain and refer back to, than trying to read through a dense paragraph of text and pick out the salient facts and dates. Just for future ref.

So here we are. She was 32 when she died. I had her as 32 in 1886, so I was managing to follow a wee tad, anyway. Do you have her date of death? She must have turned 32 w/in the 12 months prior to her death, which could have been any time Nov 1885 to Mar 1886, making her birthday sometime Nov 1852 to Mar 1854, pending confirmation of death date. That is if her recorded age at death was 100% accurate, which was certainly not always the case.

I certainly was quite aware that the reg dist was E London, rather than the name being Ellen E. I was looking at the record at FreeBMD where that is very plain; the formatting doesn't copy here. I'm sorry if you might have read it otherwise. I hadn't done so.


I've found, oddly, that it's more often our male members who tend to wed themselves to a theory and refuse to be budged from it.

My comment to Ginny -- you refer to this? --

Ginny, Barry has
- *his* Ellen's marriage certificate stating father James, labourer
- *an* Ellen's birth certificate stating father John, carpenter
and is trying to reconcile them. They seem pretty distant to me.

Well, they do. They seem extremely distant.

If John Dixon a carpenter had not died, I don't know why his child would have been in foster care at the age of 6ish, unless perhaps the mother had died. Carpenters were not destitute.

People did make mistakes about their fathers when they married, but I do think one would know if one's father was a carpenter, a skilled tradesperson, and not call him a labourer by a different name.

Ginny and Janey: thanks for your input once more!

Ginny: no, I’m not getting mixed up with her father’s name(s); this is why I noted earlier to you they are both from the marriage and birth certificates; cast in stone, so to speak – right or wrong!

Her husband, Frederick Pellow is irrelevant. Their marriage in 1878 is the starting point to find out about Ellen as nothing was known about her side of the family, not even which part of the country the family hailed.

1881 census soon after marriage was the first break - seeing where she was born; this is noted at Bath, Somerset. Over to the records at Bath and here is the birth for Ellen Dixon at the appropriate time, 4Q 1853; no Elizabeth as middle name but that’s not an issue.

Janey: perhaps you misread about Ellen’s marriage which was 1878; she died in 1886. I spent much time to put all known FACTS - no guesses - I knew about Ellen and her family to help folks who felt like a challenge.

I think your story is very plausible and makes a lot of sense; I’ll certainly have a look at the Ellen Dixon born at London 1Q 1854. However, she is also Ellen registered at East London - not Ellen E in London. Big difference! It seems the one at Bath is favourite so far - at least for me. I have often wondered why she came to London from Bath.

I’m not sure about your recent comment to Ginny, however.

We are in accord about the H/Ellen on 1861 and 1871. Her parents perhaps left the area as no deaths noted for them.

Thanks again for your four penneth, it’s really appreciated.

Ciao.

Barry

PS Just seen your input, Ozibird. Ta very muchly.

Phew, one down then.

I know how you like my stories, Ozi. ;)

Here is an Emma Dixon in Middlesex in 1841 whose father James Dixon was a labourer and her mother Jane a shopworker. It was not at all uncommon for children of unmarried parents to name their maternal grandfather as father when they married.

It's just a story, remember!

Name: Emma Dixon
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Christ Church Spitalfields
County/Island: Middlesex
Registration district: Whitechapel

James Dixon 30
Jane Dixon 30
Emma Dixon 6
- all born in county

I can't find any of them in 1851.

Janey, your story is very feasible.

Ozi

Ignore the Dixon/Dukes marriage. Here they are in 1851 (on same page), and again in 1861.


1851 England Census
Name: John Dixon
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Lodger
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Crewkerne, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Pertwood
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Street Address: Upper Pertwood

Occupation: Ag Lab

Registration district: Mere
Sub-registration district: Mere
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Piece: 1850
Folio: 55
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel Harowood 29
Mary Harowood 31
John Dixon 26


1851 England Census about Sarah Dukes
Name: Sarah Dukes
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Charles Dukes
Mother's name: Hanah Dukes
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Hindon, Wiltshire, England
Civil parish: Pertwood
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Street Address: Upper Pertwood

Occupation: Ag Lab

Registration district: Mere
Sub-registration district: Mere
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Piece: 1850
Folio: 55
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Dukes 51
Hanah Dukes 56
James Dukes 19
Sarah Dukes 14
Elizabeth Davis 2
George Hayward 22



1861 Wales Census
Name: John Dixon
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Dixon
Gender: Male
Where born: Crewkerne, Somerset, England
Civil Parish or Township: Merthyr Tydfil
Ecclesiastical parish: Dowlais
Town: Dowlais
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: Back Houses

Occupation: Lab

Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub-registration district: Upper Merthyr Tydfil
Piece: 4062
Folio: 56
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
John Dixon 34
Sarah Dixon 24 - Hindon, Wiltshire
Elizabeth L Dixon 3
Mary A Dixon 1

Ginny, Barry has

- *his* Ellen's marriage certificate stating father James, labourer

- *an* Ellen's birth certificate stating father John, carpenter

and is trying to reconcile them. They seem pretty distant to me.

"Per her birth certificate Ellen Dixon was born 4 December 1853"

What date in December 1886 did your Ellen marry?

IF after the 4th she would have been aged 33 on the date of marriage, not 32.


You know who I actually like for the job, on first impressions?


1861

Name: Emma Dixon
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Niece - unmarried
Where born: N (parish not known), London, England

Civil parish: Bath St Michael
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
County/Island: Somerset
Registration district: Bath

Elizabeth C Jeans 71 born Portsea, Dealer in Old Clothes
(in 1851 she is "independent" and is not in fact part of the household Ancestry has her in)
Emma Dixon 27 shopwoman in Old Clothes Shop


My story goes: Emma had a child and no means of support. She moved to Bath to work for her aunt, but could not care for the child and placed her with the family as shown earlier in 1861. The family assumed the child was born in Bath for the census (as did the child later), but she may well have been born in London -- for instance:

Births Mar 1854
Dixon Ellen E London 1c 42

Just my story. ;)


Anyhow, the Helen in 1861 is certainly the Ellen in 1871.

Saltford consists of one enumeration district (district 2, "the whole of the parish of Saltford") in both years -- 373 names (about 87 households) in 1861, 375 names (about 81 households) in 1871. Thomas and Ann Collyer are in that district in 1861 also. Ann was the local schoolmistress. Foster mother's death:

Deaths Mar 1865
HOPES Emma Keynsham 5c 599


Ellen's father may have been James, just not Dixon. Or "James" was for her foster father James Hopes.

You're not getting confused with both the fathers names are you?

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Frederick John Pellow
Name: Frederick John Pellow
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Spouse Name: Ellen Elizabeth Dixon
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 13 Feb 1878
Parish: All Saints, Paddington
COUNTY: Middlesex
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: John Pellow
Spouse Father Name: James Dixon

"as 'nurse child', if interpreted correctly"

I understand "nurse child", if "interpreted correctly", to refer to an unrelated child fostered by another family, of any age a child might be ...

Myself, I've seen Ellen and Helen (and Eleanor in various spellings) interchanged regularly. John and James? Never.

However, I've often seen people name fictitious fathers on marriage certificates, whether because they didn't know their father's real name, they didn't know the name of their real father, or for other reasons of their own.

Im sorry I was/am confused and that was the POINT of my post....to try and help you

Thanks for your input, Mo and Vera. It could very well be her noted as Helen in 1861; however, it is rather an elderly age as 'nurse child', if interpreted correctly.

Ellen is the same one I found for 1871 at Saltford.

Big question: where are her parents John and Sarah?

Barry,
I think Glitter Baby might have found her as a nurse child in 1861.

Regards Vera

So am I, slightly, Ginny.

This information about her father is exactly as WRITTEN on her BIRTH and MARRIAGE CERTIFICATES.

I have only noted written facts, not presumptions. Folks did change their occupation - and sometimes John and James were intermixed.

I am trying to find the 1861 census with her and her family - the point of my post! You can see her on 1871 at Saltford - and 1881 as Pillow as I noted, but this is of no help as it only gave her place of birth, the start of this search.

Maureen,
Looks like it might be her in 1861.....you know I never thought about Helen !!!! Good One.

Regards Vera

1871 for reference

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COLLIER, Thomas Head M 71 1800 Bedfordshire VIEW
COLLIER, Ann Wife F 67 1804 Carmarthenshire VIEW
LANDSDOWN, Earnest Boarder M 11 1860 Somerset VIEW
LANSDOWN, Richert Boarder M 8 1863 Somerset VIEW
DIXON, Ellen Boarder F 17 1854 Somerset VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG10 Piece:
2502 Folio:
23 Page:
13

Registration District:
Keynsham Sub District:
Newton Enumeration District:
2 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Saltford Municipal Borough:
Address:
Road, Saltford County:
Somersetshire



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have been trying to find the family in 1861 no luck at the moment.

Regards Vera

1871 ?
Name: Ellen Dixon
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Saltford
Ecclesiastical parish: Bath and Wells
Town: Saltford
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Keynsham
Sub-registration district: Newton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 70
Piece: 2502
Folio: 23
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Collier 71
Ann Collier 67
Earnest Landstrom 11
Rubert Lansdown 8
Ellen Dixon 17

1861 in same location as the 1871 census

Name: Helen Dixon
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Nu;Ch
Gender: Female
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Saltford
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Keynsham
Sub-registration district: Newton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 7
Piece: 1701
Folio: 16
Page Number: 2
Household Members: Name Age
James Hopes 53
Emma Hopes 53
Helen Dixon 6
Joseph Dawson 1

Father...John/James, labourer/carpenter

Im confused!

Can you post a census with Ellen on please

I have been trying without success to find the Dixon family - father James / John, wife Sarah, and young Ellen age 7, on 1861 census, possibly around Bath and local area.

This is what I have researched:

Spinster Ellen Elizabeth Dixon, of full age, married Frederick Pellow in Dec 1878 at Kensington, London. The marriage certificate shows her father was James, a labourer; no note he is deceased. This Pellow family is in London for 1881 census (wrongly transcribed as Pillow). Here is the first clue for Ellen’s birth place - it is Bath, Somerset. (Sadly, Ellen died in 1886 as Ellen Elizabeth Pellow, aged 32.)

Tracing backward for Ellen and her family she is on the 1871 census at Saltford, Keynsham, Bath area, as a servant, 17. Thus, no parents with her! No luck at all for the family on 1861 census. Here is where you might care to search for them and hopefully have a positive result, if you fancy a challenge!

Per her birth certificate Ellen Dixon was born 4 December 1853 at Galloway Buildings, Bath (The Abbey Bath District). Note no second name Elizabeth unlike above. Her mother is Sarah, formerly Foster, and her father is John, a carpenter; this differs from 1878 marriage certificate where her father is James, a labourer. However, I have seen these name variations before, but I thought he might still have been a carpenter.

The only marriage for John Dixon is at Mere, Somerset, the same 4Q of 1853. However, this is to Sarah Dukes. It is possible that Ellen’s mother, Sarah, is a widow (thus the name Dukes), but without the marriage certificate her status at marriage is unknown. I could not find a marriage for Dixon and Foster (or Forster).

However; this marriage (if indeed they were married) would be registered somewhere and I suspect it would be before 1837. Unless these two folks are both dead they are surely(!) on the 1861 census somewhere! I could not find a death in the area for either John or Sarah after 1853 and before 1861 that fitted the above information. I have no idea where or when John and Sarah were born or if there were other children in this family apart from Ellen (Elizabeth).

I have searched under Dickson, Dixon, Foster and Forster and * ? Wildcards etc. but I have not found them on 1861. I also looked at the 1861 census in Wales but no luck again. So frustrating!

If you fancy a daunting challenge here you are. I’ll look in throughout the day to see if there is progress.

Many thanks for your time.

Ciao.

Barry