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I am hitting a bit of a brick wall with my maternal g. grandmother. I have a copy of her marriage certificate (married a James Holt), and in the census following on from her birth she is listed as being born in Bishops Castle area of Shropshire. The problem is, I can't find any record of her birth if the area of birth is correct.
She married in Sept 1883, with an age of 26 yrs, father listed as John Minton deceased.
Can anyone please help, as this is causing me increasing frustration.
Thanks in anticipation.

What was her christian name?

Andy

What was her name?

Sarah ???

Marriages Sep 1883 (>99%)
HOLT James Bury 8c 651 Scan available - click to view
LEAK Frances Bury 8c 651 Scan available - click to view
Meadowcroft Richard Bury 8c 651 Scan available - click to view
Minton Sarah Bury 8c 651

Sorry - I though that the name was listed in the title. The name is Sarah Minton. I have a copy of the mariage certificate, but cannot find a trace of her birth, which would have been 1856/7/8, according to the marraige certificate.

Thanks

Hi Catherine -- did you look at the other names on that 1861 census page?

Sarah is a "nurse", obviously a nurse child -- a fostered child. She is in this household:

Ann Davies 12
Edward Davies 59
Lucy Davies 59
Sarah Minton 5

Higher on the page are this person and household:

Name: Edward Minton
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Hopesay, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Hopesay
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Registration district: Clun
Sub-registration district: North Lydbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 50

James Gardenas 16
Mary Gardenas 58
William Gardenas 66
Edward Minton 1

Other surnames on the page overlap considerably -- Tedstone and Davies particular.

I'd guess that Edward was Sarah's brother. And this is the only likely candidate for his birth:

Name: Edward Minton
Year of Registration: 1859
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Wem
County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 507

This would seem to be Edward Minton in 1871 -- with a Thomas added:

Name: Edward Minton
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Acton Scott, Shropshire, England

Name: Thomas Minton
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Acton Scott, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Diddlebury
Town: Westhorpe
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Registration district: Ludlow
Sub-registration district: Diddlebury
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 59

James Edwards 11
Mary Edwards 58
William Edwards 54
Edward Minton 12
Thomas Minton 22
Charles Yapp 31


This one? --

Name: Thomas Minton
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Church Stretton
County: Shropshire
Volume: 18
Page: 32


Disparate birthplaces ... I don't know the geography well enough to know whether they make sense.

This would seem to be that Thomas Minton in 1851 -- I'm just tracking these people back and forth to see what turns up! --

Name: Thomas Minton
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edward
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Acton Scott, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Acton Scott
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Registration district: Church Stretton
Sub-registration district: Church Stretton
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 27

Edward Minton 33
Emma Minton 3
Mary Minton 28
Thomas Minton 1

-- there's the Edward.

But no -- in 1861, that Edward and Mary have a son Edward of their own:


Name: Edward Minton
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Hopesay, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Corfton
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Registration district: Ludlow
Sub-registration district: Diddlebury
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 33

Elizabeth Frances 18
Mary Frances 9
Charles Minton 9
Edward Minton 42
Edward Minton 3
George Minton 9 Mo
Mary Minton 38

Sigh. Goose chases.

Here's what I wonder.

Is the Sarah Minton you have identified in 1861 all wrong? Was she really a nurse, not a nurse child, and it's her age that has been entered incorrectly on the census form?

Which wouldn't make much sense. The head of household is an Ag Lab with one 12-yr-old child, and unlikely to be employing a nurse.


This is your Sarah in 1891:

Name: Sarah Holt
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Bishops Castle, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Bury
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: Slattocks
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: South Bury
ED, institution, or vessel: 10

Arthur Holt 6
Eliza Holt 3
James Holt 30
Leonore Holt 5
Mary Holt 35
Sarah Holt 35


So where the devil is she in 71 and 81??

Well. Here she is in 1871, for what it's worth:


Name: Sarah Menton
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Acton Chen, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Acton Burnell
Ecclesiastical parish: Lichfield
Town: Acton Burnell
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Registration district: Atcham
Sub-registration district: Condover
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 6

Simon Hancocks 20
Joseph Hewitt 18
Sarah Menton 15
Beatrice Tucker 10
Charlotte Tucker 8
Edith Tucker 4
Edward Tucker 11
Henry Tucker 12
James Tucker 9
Richard Tucker 45
Selina Tucker 37
Thomas Tucker 6
William Tucker 14
John Williams 18


Some small headway.

And in 1881:


Name: Sarah Minton
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Bishop Carth, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Walmersley Cum Shuttleworth
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: Springside
Occupation: Housemaid Servant

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Walmersley
ED, institution, or vessel: 1

Ellen Hodgson 29
Sarah Minton 25
Sarahann Nutt 20
Alice Olive 41
Emily Olive 8
John Olive 15
Maryann Olive 17
Richard Olive 46
Richard Ernest Olive 2
Agnes Rily 25
Edith Townsend 20

Here is the only other Minton in Hopesay in 1861:


Name: Eliza Minton
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Brunslow, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Hopesay
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Registration district: Clun
Sub-registration district: North Lydbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 85

Eliza Minton 25
Ann Waring 31
Frederick W Waring 2
Gertrude Waring 5
Lucy Waring 6
Margaret J Waring 8
Mary Waring 11
Thomas Waring 42


I think she is the mother of Sarah and Edward.

And I think "John Minton" on Sarah's marriage certificate was a figment, I'm sorry to say.


Here is Eliza in 1851:


Name: Eliza Minton
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Not Known, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Hopesay
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Clun
Sub-registration district: Clun
ED, institution, or vessel: 4b
Household schedule number: 44

William Bright 17
Edward Lewis 50
Samuel Lewis 45
William Lloyd 45
Eliza Minton 16
Ester Morris 50
George Price 18


Two possibilites in 1841:


Name: Elizabeth Minton
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Gender: Female
Where born: Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Mainstone
Hundred: Clun (Mainstone Division)
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

View Image

Registration district: Clun
Sub-registration district: Bishops Castle
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Minton 35
Edward Minton 2
Elizabeth Minton 4
Mary Minton 30

-- a possible source of the Edward name.


Name: Elizth Minton
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Gender: Female
Where born: Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Bishops Castle
Hundred: Purslow (Stow Division)
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Clun
Sub-registration district: Bishops Castle

Ann Minton 26
Elizth Minton 9
John Minton 74
Martha Minton 75

-- a possible source of the John name, him being, if you'll forgive me taking it lightly, the most recent known male ancestor. ;)


Now you let me know what you think!

In 1861, Sarah was being fostered by the Davies:

Edward Davies 59
Lucy Davies 59


Her grandparents -- and the source of the Edward name?

Name: Sarah Davies
Year of Registration: 1857
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Clun
County: Montgomeryshire, Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 513

(First quarter 1857 could have been a birth in 1856, and would have made her 26 in Sept 1883.)

In that case, might they have been her maternal grandparents, and John Minton actually have been her father?

Thanks so much Kathryn for the work that you have been doing on this. I'll PM you with a few more Q's - to run a few things past you.
Thanks

I think that was the best theory I could come up with!

Now what was it ...

That she could have been the daughter of a John Minton and a Ms. Davies? but been registered at birth as Davies, and then used the Minton name, while her mother pretended to be married to a Minton she wasn't actually married to ...

Or vice versa -- that she was the daughter of the Elizabeth Minton in the earlier censuses, John Minton was really her grandfather, and maybe the Davies-s were her paternal grandparents ...

The only thing I'd be pretty sure of is that the Eliza Minton in Hopesay in 1861 is the mother of Sarah and Edward, both of whom are being fostered by other familes. Whether she was really married, or born Minton, ?



When I referred to the elder John Minton, I didn't mean he would be Sarah's father -- just that if he were her grandfather, she might have named him on her marriage cert as father, a practice that was not too uncommon for children of unmarried women when they married. (I just helped someone in Australia sort out her clan in London pre-1901, one of whom had thrown a complete wrench into the works by doing just that when he married shortly after the 1901 census.)


Oh, crap -- I seem to have looked at this Eliza before (the link shows as viewed) -- what did I do with her? Perhaps the Eliza in Hopesay in 1861 is not her at all.

In 1861:

Name: Eliza Minton
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Clun, Shropshire, England

Name: John Minton Jun.
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Son
Spouse's Name: Eliza
Father's Name: John
Gender: Male
Where born: Clun, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Clun
Ecclesiastical parish: Newcastle
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Registration district: Clun
Sub-registration district: Clun
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 28

Eliza Minton 30
John Minton 61 - farmer
John Minton 30
Mary Minton 3
Thomas Minton 5
William Minton 1
Sarah Whittal 14


The ages, 30, may be a little too round; they could be older.

But they don't have a daughter named Sarah.

In 1901 your Eliza Minton is shown as born in Basford, Shropshire. Google maps tells me:

Basford, Edgton
Craven Arms, Shropshire
UK

(I'm used to Basford Notts, where a batch of my own come from.) About 2 km north of Hopesay.

John Minton-s marrying during the relevant time in Shropshire:


Marriages Jun 1853
Farmer Mary Clun 6a 1009 Scan
Jones Mary Clun 6a 1009 Scan
Minton John Clun 6a 1009 Scan
SALT William Clun 6a 1009

-- no Eliza.


Marriages Dec 1854
James David Wem 6a 1415 Scan
Minton John Wem 6a 1415 Scan
Whitfield Sarah Ann Wem 6a 1415

-- missing bride. This is a possible.


Marriages Mar 1855 in Cleobury M, no Eliza.


But Clun is where we should be looking, as I understand it, unless Eliza came from another district, which your Eliza didn't.

So, reduced to searching for a John who married an Eliza in Clun 1850-1861 ... a John Mantle may have married an Elizabeth Preece in 1851, but I think that's a little too early and the name is not likely that far off.


Your Sarah just never had the courtesy to appear in a household with her parents in a census, nor did Eliza apparently ever appear with her husband, if she had one. They have followed all the rules for ancestors, i.e. made themselves as unidentifiable as possible.

As far as whether Sarah could have been registered as one name and called herself (or been called by her mother) another -- it's certainly been done. (My gr-grfather and his sister, on some whim that I'll never know the reason for, changed their surname from Hill to Monck, which was one of the sister's given names, sometime between the 1871 census and about 1875. They both married as Monck, etc. So that's my addendum to the Rules for Ancestors. Change your surname. You can. So just do it.)

But there are scads of Sarah Davies-s of about that age in Shropshire, some with parents John and Eliza even. So odds are it's not her.

I have some work has to be done this half hour, so I'm going to leave you again!