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Hi

The Thomas Brown info checks out to be correct. Thank you. I think he may be in Maidstone by 1911.
1901 c puts him in Gillingham. Amelia in Maidstone, so I think he may end up there.
The Greenwich birth date is not ours, but thanks for trying, grateful.
I am wondering if Susannah was Althenia? I need to chase up some more info in Derby for them both.
Be back later.

Hi
Thankyou Astra.

Hi Dolly
I posted a death for Edwin above in 1914 which is the most likely. In 1911 Elizabeth still declares herself as married so it looks as though he died after that but you won't know if it is him or not unless you get the death certificate. I'm afraid it is the only way. I'll be back later after work.

Hi

I wonder if anyone is able to help with finding the death details for Edwin Arnold B/ 1871 Chatham. Sometimes known as Edward and married to Elizabeth Merchant.
It is believed that he drowned in the River Thames. Between 1903 and 1911. Been searching for his death for quite some time now.
His son William George was born 1903 Chatham and he is not in the 1911 census. At this time Elizabeth is boarding with Frederick Oliver.
One of those stories that is passed through families.
I know that by the Thames there was an annual Fair held there and wondered if he could have been visiting or working there.
Edwin comes from a line of Travellers.
Any help with this one and you will knock me off my chair. Postings in the past on other sites have not been able to solve the demise of Edwin_so I wonder if you are willing to give it a try?
The success of your results on these boards is the best that I have come across.
Be back in touch soon.

Hello
Astra I am going to chase up the lead for Elizabeth Mother_possibly_Mary and see where that pans out.
The childrens details are all stated as previously given on this thread and they come from the Dr Barnados letter.

I am now off to chase up some more data for them all. Be back on line later.

Good Morning All
Thankyou everyone for your efforts in solving this riddle. I shall be off to work shortly.
Chris-I will chase up the birth data that you gave and let you know what I can find there. Astra-absolute star.
Thomas Brown Chatham-1891c- strong likelihood that is her. She has a daughter Faith Hope Charity Brown B/ June 1892 Chatham. I wonder if they were both Widows and got together. But this relationship then ends. Amelia on the census must be a child from another relationship.

The birth details for all the Welsh children come from the Dr Barnados letter. At first I thought that DR B/ was protecting the children and maybe altered the dates . Would they have done that?
Now, I believe that Elizabeth lied to get them into the home, an idea which has formed on this board with all your findings and questions. Thank you.

1881c I may have made assumptions here, this is our Robert and Liz-but maybe not thier cousin after all.
I never trusted Liz with birth data-although there are Merchants in Leics.
On most census info she states B/ 1860ish Leic-My gut after chasing up many records for her and the 1881c and the Marraige-is that she is from Derby. So I will research her there more intensely. Her chequered past, for whatever reason, put her in a position to lie, conceal facts etc.
As with today, I don`t think that people would have taken kindly to her should they have found out that her children were placed into care.
Born out of wedlock and living with different men.
I think she may have been a victim of circumstances at times.

Astra what census is that for Mary Merchant?
Interestingly enough I did research more on the Holloway in Derby-I was looking for her son John B/ 1886 Holloway. I came across an Elizabeth Merchant there but she was much older.
This latest info that you have found looks promising. Does the census state Mary as being a Widow?

Robert Welsh Senior, DR B/ letter states he died Leic Infirmary-but that came from Liz. Another red herring?
I feel that he died before he was 30 years. Disease/accident or something more sinister.?

Susannah? I don`t think she was born in Chatham. I am slowly trawling through the Medway City Ark Baptism Records. Has she died? Is someone able to look up deaths in the Derby area for Susannah for me please?
I agree with you Astra-about the doubt on the childrens dates and locations of birth. And yes they are specific and that is what has thrown this search all over the place . Which came from Liz in the letter. Robert and John, Obenia/Althenia were definately in Dr B/s.
What I understand less is that William George Arnold is put into DR B/s? Whilst she is with Edwin Arnold???
Now the Arnolds are a large family, many in the Towns at the time-they would have taken him in. ? As is shown on census with other children.

The marraige for Arthur Thomas Arnold is an outstanding find-yes, he must have switched his name around. Also shown on the 1911c-maybe that is the correct name in the first place and again Liz has messed with detail? And why I couldn`t find him!!

Later this evening I will post a `time line` for Liz and her children-who is born when and where , I have never been able to grasp just how much Liz travelled-that has not made sense to me from the beginning of my search for her background.

I must leave for work now. Thankyou everybody that has contributed to this thread.

I'm reading through the thread again because it is getting more and more confusing. I can't find birth registrations for the children from the dates you give. Robert born Sheffield 6 December 1882. That is very specific. Where did that information come from?
In 1881 you say that they are boarding with their cousin Catherine Conray from Dudley. Catherine is noted as cousin on the census but not to Elizabeth and Robert. Relationships were given to the head of the household who is John Daley so she is his cousin.
I'm leaving this until I come back from work later. Maybe someone else will be able to find the births of the children unless she failed to register them.

I'm wondering, because of the location of her marriage to Robert, if this is Elizabeth as a child with her mother Mary. This would mean that she was born in Derbyshire and not Leicestershire. Her birth was registered as just Elizabeth but the middle name of Rebecca may have been given at Baptism.

Elizabeth Merchant
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Mary Merchant
Gender: Female
Where born: Holloway, Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Ashover
Town: Holloway
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Belper
Sub-registration district: Wirksworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Household schedule number: 72
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Merchant 39
>>Elizabeth Merchant 9
Mary A Merchant 7
Lydia J Merchant 4

This looks like Thomas Brown born Chatham but are you certain that this is your Elizabeth? She gives her place of birth as Yorkshire? Are these the correct details. This is 1891

Elizabeth Walsh
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Housekeeper
Gender: Female
Where born: Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Chatham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Chatham
County/Island: Kent
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Brown 31
Amelia Brown 18
>>Elizabeth Walsh 28

Here is the Thomas to Charlotte marriage in 1925. He has reversed his names if it is him.

Marriages Dec 1925 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Arnold Arthur T Phillips Portsmouth 2b 1384
>>Phillips Charlotte H Arnold Portsmouth 2b 1384
Pink Alfred J Slade Portsmouth 2b 1384
Slade Emily E Pink Portsmouth 2b 1384

Births Dec 1887 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WELSH Female Greenwich 1d 1102

(just an outsider for an idea!, couldn't find an Elthinia either as named on other Thread, when I looked earlier this afternoon)

Chris :)

Hello
I have just returned from searching Family Search and Ancestry-still unable to track down the GR for Althenia born Notting Hill London 1887/8-any help greatly appreciated.
Checked my paperwork and Thomas Arthur Arnold married to Charlotte Helen Phillips she was from Portsmouth-have no further detail on the Marraige event. If anyone is able to look up that event and Charlotte I shall go to bed a happy woman. They lived in Derby for a time before seperating and Charlotte returning to Portsmouth.
William George Arnold was in Dr Barnados and left there, whereabouts unknown, but I have found what I believe to be a plausible marraige entry.
To a Lily Lydia Arnold-her parents John and Julia-married 1920 Chatham.
Lily born 25 Aug 1897-D/ 1973 Chatham
Which if correct, and I don`t know, it would mean he came to find his Mother,. ???
By Jove! I think we are making headway.
Be back on line tomorrow. Thank you for all your help.

Hi
I have sent the lady a request for info on Edwin and an invite to join in this thread. Now I can copy out that 1911c.

Hello

The death for Edwin-I will check it out further. I am just going to quickly email a person on Edwin-she has a story about him-if he is the right Edwin-there are a few in this family. Be right back.

Hello
Had my tea.
I have just re-read the 1911c_am I blind or what?? Althenia is there?? Not a mis-spelling-where did she come from. She was in Dr Barnados-so found her Mother!! Goodness me.
I am gobsmacked.
Who Elizabeth was with between Robert and Edwin-definately Thomas Brown born abt 1862 Chatham, I am floored by your finding Althenia.
The 1901c-yes-right and Tessiah is Keziah.
Faith CH Brown was known as Charity and married James Wiltshire-no nothing of him and then marries Thomas Stephen Bagshaw -married1921 Portsmouth and moves to Derby. Cannot find her death.
Then Ellen appears in Derby-3x married.
James Saunders? William Edward Gambier-he is from Watford-1884-in
the Navy. Death I think 1919 Uxbridge? Then marries Charles Henry Creamer he is born 1890 Portsea Cannot find Ellens death.
These are the 2 Aunts that Arthur was sent to live with.
James has vanished. As has Susannah. But are you right and she is not thiers. I am musing-you found Althenia.
Faith did spend some time in Dorset-workhouse? Peony?
I am just going to write out that 1911c. Thankyou. well done

It looks as though Edwin could have died in 1914

Deaths Mar 1914 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arnold Edwin 42 Malling 2a 1042

This is them in 1901

ARNOLD, Edwin Head Married M 29 1872 General Labourer
Chatham
Kent VIEW
ARNOLD, Elizabeth Wife Married F 36 1865
Leicester
Leicestershire VIEW
ARNOLD, Peaney Daughter Single F 13 1888
Millwall
London VIEW
ARNOLD, Charity Daughter F 9 1892
Chatham
Kent VIEW
ARNOLD, Edwin Son M 6 1895
Chatham
Kent VIEW
ARNOLD, Elijah Son M 5 1896
Chatham
Kent VIEW
ARNOLD, George Son M 3 1898
Chatham
Kent VIEW
ARNOLD, Tessiah Daughter F 0 (1 MOS) 1901
Chatham
Kent VIEW

Civil Parish:
Chatham Municipal Borough:
Address:
2, Clover Alley, Chatham County:
Kent

I note that she married Edwin in 1899 as Elizabeth Merchant Barnes. Have you any idea who she was with after Robert and before Edwin?

Marriages Jun 1899 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Arnold Edwin Medway 2a 1296
>>Barnes Elizabeth Merchant Medway 2a 1296
May Minnie Eliza Medway 2a 1296
Smith John Medway 2a 1296


I have been trying to find a birth registration for Althenia. It should be an easy name to find. But it is proving elusive at the moment.

No problem Dolly. It just saves us a lot of duplicated information.

Hi
Flick and Astra
I have deleted the other thread. Thanks for warning me that people can end up duplicating information. Sorry.