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Since leaving my earlier message, I found this section in The Butler Society information under Q402. BJ3#4. John Butler (d. 1865) of Glengall Place, Old Kent Road. Clue: A "Gentleman", he d. aged 69 and his Will was proved in London by his widow, Jane Sarah, and sons, John and Walter (per Mrs John Butler of Rotherfield, Sussex). Reply: He must have been the undertaker of 20 Crucifix Lane, b.1791, s/o John Butler, undertaker, of Crucifix Lane, who was in 1752 a carpenter's apprentice as s/o John Butler, a Merchant Taylor. Thelma Gillot has kindly confirmed the census shows he was born, St. John, Southwark, and aged 70 in 1861. His 1864 Will is remarkably informative and discloses the family vault was in Norwood Cemetery and, by a previous mariage, he had 3 children - Susannah Toplis, (Emily) Sarah Shoobridge and his late son, Charles (my pgggf) - who had received large sums of money from their maternal relatives, and he had 2 other surviving daus - Jane Sutton and Julia (to whom he left an additional £1000 which may be required "for her affliction"). It adds that since 1838 he had been speculating in real property south of the river, which suggests he might be the John Butler, wharfinger, of the 1835 Poll Book, possibly linked with John Butler of Butler's Wharf in 1802 (Q356). 402. BJ4#3 John Butler (d.1865) of Glengall, Old Kent Road. In The Times 27 June 1872, Lord Dunboyne spotted that Chancery papers 1870 B No.34 concern Charles Butler (my pgggf) and others v. Edward Toplis and Joseph Sayer. David Hawgood of Acton, an expert on computer genealogy, is descended from Edward Toplis (d.1856) by Charlotte nee Butler (d.1862) whose son James m Sussanah d/o the above James Butler (d.1865) of Glengall. I have the marriage certificate for Charles' 1st marriage to Miriam Everett dated 23.9.1837 at St James, Bermondsey (father John down as 'Gent') with John Toplis and Emily Sarah Butler down as witnesses. His 2nd marriage to Sarah Ann Bevan (my pggf John's mother) took place on 26.02.1846 at The Parish Church in Preston, Sussex (father John 'Gent'). James Toplis and Susannah Toplis down as witnesses. Earlier message (below) My Paternal gggg-f John Butler was married twice. First marriage around 1813-14 to a Susannah (don't know surname). They had 3 children, my ggg-f Charles (1816) Susannah (about 1817) and Sarah (about 1818). I would really like to find out the surname of Susannah and where they were living in the 1831 census. Second marriage to Jane Sarah (don't know surname) about 1819-20 living at Glengall Place, Old Kent Road, in 1841 census, with children John (1821) George (1826) Alfred (1826) - twins I guess Jane (1828) Louisa (1830) Clare (1831) Ellen (1832) Julia (1833) Walter (1837) Laura (1839) + House servants Catherine Leonard (20) Eliza Scotter (20) Edward Larkins (15) Any further information most gratefully received. Thanks.