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this family is such a good match for the facts of 'C Mortimer'

the couple (possible parents) married in London in 1853 i.e. after his birth

his true father could well have been a coach trimmer ... given that the possible mother Jane Raine was a servant to a baronet in 1851
(was the baronet in London just before that and was she a servant in the household there?)

father Joseph was in Bury in 1861 (mother Jane and children of the marriage were in Leicestershire working for a big house where Joseph's father also worked), family was in Lancashire in 1871

but where would 'C' have been in 1851/1861 and what would his name have been at birth?

_______________________________________________________

1871 in Rusholme Lancashire

Joseph Mortimer 47 provisions dealer born Oakley Bedfordshire
Jane Mortimer 50 born Yorkshire
Sarah Ann Mortimer 16
William Mortimer 13
Sarah Wearmouth 16

_______________________________________________________

1861 in Bury Lancashire

Joseph Mortimer, married, 23, boarder, born London, house joiner(?)

1861 in Skeffington Leicestershire,
living at 'Dog Kennels' attached to Skeffington Hall, household of Richard Shotton(?), High Sheriff etc.

Thomas Mortimer 67 born Bedfordshire, house servant,
Elizabeth Mortimer 27 housekeeper
Sarah A Mortimer 6 grandchildren
William Mortimer 3

and Jane Mortimer 1821 Yorkshire, married, a servant at Skeffington Hall (on same census page)

_______________________________________________________

1851 St Geo Hanover Square London

Joseph Mortimer aged 24 unmarried, born Oakley Bedfordshire, servant to a gentleman


1851 Quorndon, Leicestershire

Jane Raine aged 30 unmarried, born Romaldkirk Yorkshire (Rumblehrwk per Ancestry), servant housekeeper to a Baronet

(1841 she was in Lunedale, Romald Kirk, female servant to a farmer)


Marriages Jun 1853
Mortimer Joseph St Geo Han Sq 1a 355
Raine Jane St.Geo.H.Sq 1a 355


1891 in Rushulme Lancashire

Robert Borroughs 39 born Rushulme, C Joiner
Sarah Ann Borroughs 36 born London
Jane Mortimer 70 mother in law born Yorkshire
Mary Raine 21 cousin born Yorkshire
Nora Jane Raine 6 cousin born Cumberland (1885 Penrith)

Alan I may have included too much extraneous material as I went along ... as you can see it was a bit of a process that I got a little carried away with time-wise (it was late late at night, I had had to stay awake at first to medicate a very sick cat, then I just kept going ...)

what I was proposing comes down to

________________________________________________________

1871

Name: C G Mortimer
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Buckinghamshire, England ('Buckingham')
Civil Parish: Bury
Town: Bury
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Bury

OCCUPATION: SCENIC ARTIST with addition THEATRE [something]

________________________________________________________

1891

Name: C Mortimer
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Visitor
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Reigate
Town: Reigate
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Reigate

Occupation: DECORATOR

Alfred Hooker 42 gardener born Dorking Surrey
Harriett A Hooker 46 born Horsham Sussex
Alfred Hy Hooker 15
Florence M Hooker 13
Albert J Hooker 11
C Mortimer 43

________________________________________________________


do you really not think this is very likely your Clifford ???


I can't imagine how you would ever determine how your Clifford and Adelaide met
or how he might have been connected with her employers
unless I suppose you found him, somehow connected with them
... but that depends on finding him!

but one thing those censuses do show is a connection with Lancashire ... that 'C' was in Bury in 1871

unfortunately he was a visitor in Surrey in 1891
but his place of birth that year is given as London, same as for your Clifford in 1911


your Clifford was 'Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)' on his death certificate
and 'Painter Artist' in the 1911 census

you don't think 'Scenic Artist' (Theatre) and 'Decorator' are about as close as one can get to those? :-)

JC,

Many thanks for the further info. :-)

I have decided to go back to basics and work from the facts we know.
Adelaide was shown in the 1901 census as a servant, living in Broughton, Salford.

In 1904, she married Clifford in Blackpool.

How did they meet?

Was he somehow related to her employers, who were shown as Farmers?

In 1911, Clifford and Adelaide were shown as residing in Manchester

After 1911 two of their children's births were registered in the Stockport Registration District (1912 and 1913)

My father's birth was registered in 1915, in Broughton!

Full Circle :-(

If, as I surmise, Clifford was either a set director, or from some of his work a theatre painter that could explain the Blackpool connection(?), but the rest??

The YDNA test is becoming increasingly more attractive :-)

is there anything at all Egyptian looking about your Clifford ??

this household just seems possibly interesting


1851

Name: Clifford Mideana
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Hassan Mideana
Mother's name: Anne Mideana
Where born: Stepney, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Stepney
County/Island: Middlesex
Registration district: Stepney

Hassan Mideana 35 born Alexandria Egypt, house painter
Anne Mideana 30
Fredk Mideana 9
Alfred Mideana 5
Clifford Mideana 2
Mary Somerhalder 66 totally bad transcription, entry scratched up, possibly Somerscales?


1861 same address

Hassan All (it's Ali) Medina 46 house painter
Elizabeth Medina 40
Clifford Edmund Medina 12
Sater Slade 20


I can't find a birth for a Clifford Ed* at all or a marriage but it's hard to know what names to look for

there are no BMD records for a Clifford Medina

family search shows Hassan Ali Medina on the 1890 and 1891 electoral registers, his death reg 1894 shows dob c1813

oh here we are

Births Dec 1848
MIDENA Edmund Clifford Stepney 2 528


I'm just thinking ... someone might have anglicised his name ...

there is no marriage or death for Edmund or Clifford, Midena or Medina


brother Alfred proceeded under that name ... and had sons so there should be YDNA descendants for comparison :-D

1891

Alfred E Medina 45
Susannah Medina 46
Edward Medina 11
Henry Medina 9
George Medina 7
Ellen Edwards 44
+ older son Alfred Hassan Medina in 1871 and 81 censuses

in 1871 Alfred was a Clothier and Furniture Dealer, and in 1901 and 1911 he was a House Furnisher ...

and then there are the Ancestry trees ... (mundia site is down at present)

one has Mary, 1830 daughter of William and Penelope, as married to Robert Todd no marriage details

one has Mary, 1830 daughter of William and Penelope, as married to Thomas Mortimer 1834 which I think unlikely and the product of stupid Ancestry hints or something

wondering whether we might find that Gaius in 1861 under a stepfather's surname

oh aha, Mary Ann was 'Ann' in 1861

Name: Ann Todd
[Ann Mortimar]
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: 1833
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert Todd
Mother's name: Penellope Mortimar
Where born: Winchendon Nether, Buckinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Chearsley
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Registration district: Aylesbury

Robert Todd 32 ag lab
Ann Todd 28
William J Todd 6
Emily A Todd 4
Kate L Todd 1
Infant Todd 1/12
Penellope Mortimar 60 the same person has corrected her name

but is she really Mary Ann? no child in the household born c1849

Marriages Jun 1853
Mortimer Ann Aylesbury 3a 481
Todd Robert Aylesbury 3a 481


no, that was her sister Ann, finally found them in 1841

Name: Mary Mortimore
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Where born: Buckinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Chearsley
Hundred: Ashendon
Registration district: Aylesbury

William Mortimore 35
Cornepley Mortimore 35
> Mary Mortimore 10
> Ann Mortimore 8
Ette Mortimore 5
Henerey Mortimore 2


so that tree too is hogwash


so that's

no luck for 1861, 1881, 1901
C / CG in 1871, 1891
possible Gaius in 1851

in 1881, no luck as artist, painter, decor*



BUT we can rule out Gaius Mortimer, found him in 1891 with mother finally

Name: Gains Warner
[Gaius Warner] (same person correcting again)
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John Warner
Mother's name: Mary Warner
Where born: Stoke Hammond, Buckinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Nether Winchendon
Town: Nether Winchendon
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Registration district: Aylesbury

Occupation: ag lab

John Warner 62
Mary Warner 61
Gains Warner 40 son widower
Ellen Warner 28 daughter single
Florence A Warner 14 grandchildren
Horace S Warner 13
Francis W Warner 11
Alice Warner 6
Christopher Warner 3

Marriages Dec 1874
Warner Gaius Aylesbury 3a 823

Deaths Sep 1928
Warner Gaius 78 Newport P. 3a 872


the Male Mortimer birth is still a possibility ... but is probably Gaius

1891

Name: C Mortimer
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Visitor
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Reigate
Town: Reigate
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Reigate

Occupation: DECORATOR

Alfred Hooker 42 gardener born Dorking Surrey
Harriett A Hooker 46 born Horsham Sussex
Alfred Hy Hooker 15
Florence M Hooker 13
Albert J Hooker 11
C Mortimer 43


could this maybe be 'CG' in 1851? the person who corrected the name does not give any details

Name: Gaings Mortimer
[Gaius Mortimer]
Age: 10 Mo
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Stoke, Bedfordshire, England
[should probably be read as Bucks, Stoke Hammond and Stoke Mandeville are in Aylesbury reg dist?]
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Registration district: Aylesbury

William Mortimer 46 ag lab born Bucks
Penelope Mortimer 49 born Oxfordshire
Henryetta Mortimer 14 born Cuddington (Aylesbury dist)
Henry Mortimer 12 born Chearsley (Aylesbury dist)
Gaings Mortimer 10 Mo



https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKB4-JBG

Name: Gaius Mortimer
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 28 Jul 1850
Christening Place: LOWER WINCHENDON, BUCKINGHAM, ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Mary Mortimer
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: J07935-2

this could account for the mythical Joseph, carriage painter :-)

there is no further record of this person after 1851 census

he is in a familiy tree at familysearch.org showing him as daughter of Mary Ann (1830 Lower Winchendon Bucks) who was daughter of William Mortimer (1803, christened Mortimore) and Penelope Freeman (1800)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/S5B4-73H

if this might be your Clifford, YDNA might be the only chance of identifying his father :-D


all of the 'Gaius's born in Buckinghamshire 1848-1851 are accounted for either in infant deaths (Lawrence, Kemptster) or in the 1851 census (Sanders, Creed, Horn, Rose, Welford)



Mary in 1851

Name: Mary Mortimer
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relation: Servant
Where born: Whmetandon, Oxfordshire, England
> Civil Parish: Stoke Hammond
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Registration district: Leighton Buzzard


for the geography,
Nether Winchendon, Chearsley and Cuddington are a little cluster just west of Aylesbury
Stoke Mandeville is on the southeastern fringe of Aylesbury
(Stoke Hammond is north north east of Aylesbury past Leighton Buzzard)

intriguing yes, and had to wonder whether they might have had another brother ...

the 1861 census does not match up with supposed details though


Registration district: Newington
Civil Parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: 6 Bruntsfield Pl

John Martimer 51 born England, Jeweller & Clothier Employing 10 Men & Boys
Elizabeth A Martimer 12
Frederick Martimer 10
Charles Martimer 8
Alexander W Martimer 6
Olivia C M Martimer 4
Mary Martimer 49 sister
John E Martimer 12 nephew
Isabella Morgan 22
Janet Graham 60
Helen Carstairs 19


1881 in Wimbledon

George Mortimer 35
Helen M. Mortimer 32
Ethel M. Mortimer 9
Winifred M. Mortimer 7
Alexander W. Mortimer 26 brother, art student painting
Elizabeth M. Tinker 16


can't seem to find them in 1871 to see whether there might be a brother born after the 1861 census ......


oh my goodness, look who I did find though, oh my goodness


1871

Name: C G Mortimer
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Buckinghamshire, England ('Buckingham')
Civil Parish: Bury
Town: Bury
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Bury

OCCUPATION: SCENIC ARTIST with addition THEATRE [something]

oh my goodness???


could that be

Births Jun 1850 ?
Mortimer Male Aylesbury 6 356

I have come across this intriguing entry in the 1891 Census.

Alexander was boarding at Blenheim Road, Acton, Brentford together with a Charles Mortimer who may be Alexander's older brother, but who is listed as 'living on own means'


First name(s)
Alexander

Last name
Mortimer

Relationship
Boarder

Marital condition
Single

Gender
Male

Age
36

Birth year
1855

Occupation
Artist

Birth town
-

Birth county
-

House name
-

Street
Blenheim Road

Parish
Acton

Town
Acton

County
Middlesex

Country
England

Municipal ward
-

Parliamentary borough
Ealing

Ecclesiastical district
St Michaels & All Angels

Registration district
Brentford

Enumeration district
-

Series
RG12

Piece number
1038

Folio number
3

Page
12

Record set
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Category
Census, land & surveys

Record collection
Census

Collections from
Great Britain

Just done some more research. The above Alexander is shown on the 1911 census still living with his brother, and still single. Tragically, the brother, Charles, is shown as being totally blind from the age of 12.

So, that rules out a name change as Clifford was married in 1904.

Ah well, back to the records


:-D

JoonieCloonie and Sylvia

Many thanks for the information re Mundia. I wasn't aware of that particular site.

I am registered with Ancestry but I have not yet taken out a subscription. I did try to start my family tree on there a few years ago but did not get very far. That is possibly the second family tree that Sylvia refers to.

Having now been on to the mundia site it appears the brendroyle has been focussing on the Coe side of the family and has a bit more information than I have including marriages and descendants of Adelaide's siblings so that is helpful, but Clifford appears to stop with Joseph.

I think that both brendroyle and myself would have got Clifford's father's name form Clifford's marriage certificate and his place of birth from the 1911 census.

However, I have sent a message to brendroyle to see if he/she has any further information.

JoonieCloonie, I will pm you re the DNA testing

Once again my thanks to you both

you know Allan ... I am going to recommend what I start to sound like a broken record saying ...

DNA testing

you are a son of a son of Clifford and I don't know the details but you could be the only male line descendant unless your dad had a brother who had a son for example, or you have a son - and if you are the only male-line descendant then you are the only person whose DNA could be used for this

the male line, YDNA, is the way to trace paternity (which is supposed to match surname but that is often the issue!)

it is only helpful to test if someone who matches has also tested and of course that is a very big gamble ... it paid off wildly for me when I found a very close match for a male ancestor's male line which was very iffy up to then ... and still is, but this gave me a whole new surname to investigate ... but the chance of finding such a match is not high of course

(it's also possible there just are no other male line descendants from Clifford's father or grandfather or what have you ... that is the case on my other side I am quite sure, where a long surname line in a little village eventually came down to one male person, my 4xgreat grandfather, who had only one son who had only one son (who then multiplied rather extremely in the course of two marriages, so the YDNA is now fairly secure!) ... but it means there just are no other descendants of men in that line born before 1750ish for me to find - but I might find people descended from a common ancestor back before records and surnames)

however as more people test all the time, you just never know when a related person might turn up

I have used Family Tree DNA which maintains surname projects with volunteer administrators who are almost all very helpful and at least somewhat knowledgeable

there is in fact a Mortimer surname project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
... with lots of variety of ancestry :-)

you can join a surname project but at the same time the site will search all testees to see whether there is a match no matter the surname, which is how mine was found

think about it - it is fun if nothing else! and I can explain more about what to do (and also how to protect privacy) and what it might find you, if you like

so I made my way through the thread a little and I found that Clifford Wallett fellow a little interesting and thought I would see whether anything more turned up about him

Clifford Wallett born abt 1843 with wife Fanny and children Elizabeth, Ada and William in 1871 who was living with Mortimers in 1881, and they were all circus performers

well Clifford and Fanny were never married and Ada for example was never born as far as I can tell

but Ada was baptised in 1865 in Newcastle upon Tyne
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NVLP-WLQ?cc=1473014

and she died in 1929 in North Carolina USA
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F3Z3-2V6

and she was in the US censuses with her husband and family and her mother Fanny Wallett in North Carolina
1910 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/ML3V-V5F
1920 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MZJ5-N17

saying she emigrated to the US in 1882
(although in 1910 it says she was born in 1870 and emigrated in 1890)

and these are the documents that people who have Ada in their trees on line have obviously compiled and taken their info from

familysearch also has the death of William in Michigan in 1930 for instance

Mundia is refusing to show me trees just now, it does that sometimes
but Ancestry shows several with Ada the daughter of Clifford Wallett
for Clifford they show a birthdate but no info after the 1881 census and no death

of course the fact that the 1890 US census is lost is no help
but here is Fannie in 1900
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MS13-DP5
... showing immigration in 1869 which is plainly silly
Ada shows as marrying 1883
so it seems they did emigrate in 1882 between the 1881 census and the 1883 marriage
and first lived in Virginia, then Indiana, then North Carolina

the fun bit in the family trees is the photos
one shows Ada posed in a ballet costume (I read the rumour of a Russian ballerina, in this thread!)
another is a Ringling Bros poster showing her as Madam Castello
(her husband was David Costello Loughlin and in 1900 he ran a Bar & Billiard Saloon)
there is another photo in the family trees showing Ada and her daughter and son 'working on the family equestrian act'

all of which has been completely fascinating (and thankfully not too time consuming) but it ends up here I now find after adding all this:
the story of Clifford born 1843 in Atherstone (with photos, and parents' names) in an Ancestry tree:

'Clifford, was a circus equestrian who had married Fanny Jeffries, a tightrope walker. The couple had three children, at least two of whom were included in a touring circus equestrian act. In 1882, with their two youngest children, Ada and William Frederick, Clifford and Fanny (who used the name "Madame Jeffries", derived from her maiden name, for her act) left for America where they settled in Henderson, North Carolina and became very well established with the American circuses, including the great Barnum & Bailey, as an equestrian act. In 1900/01, their son William Frederick and his wife were included in the Barnum & Bailey tour of Europe where, in Vienna, their daughter Florence May Lillo Wallett was born. Ada performed as "The Great Zazell", across America and in several other countries as the first woman to be shot from a cannon in America.'

that also appears at Mundia in the tree of suetonr

so that is the story of a person who seems not to be Clifford Mortimer :-)

starting at the end and rather than read all the way through - !! - I will just mention about what SylviaInCanada said ...

the Ancestry family tree can be accessed at mundia.com for free
(register, sign in and search)
and a message can be sent through that system that the addressee receives in their Ancestry account inbox


the brendroyle tree has 21,475 people in it - !! - so who knows the connection ... but it looks like it is probably to Clifford and Adelaide's son in law (click on the little people icon attached to him in the family tree) ... although no that doesn't go far either ... hm, the connection could be to Adelaide ... there is a photo attached to the record of a child of her brother Albert ... oh of course that must be Allan's cousin

the other tree Clifford is in has two people in it ... Clifford and his father Joseph about whom nothing is known ... :-)

I notice there is a Public Fmaily tree on Ancestry with Clifford and Adelaide ................


No mroe information than you have though!



For what it is worth, the tree owner is brendroyle


Did you see this when you had access to ancestry?

Hello Quinsgran and SylviainCanada

Quinsgran, I am a member of FMP, and also had access to Ancestry when I was a member of our local Family History Society (which I must re-join) but neither site has yielded any clue as to Clifford's early years

Sylvia, I've also checked on the age aspect, but , if anything, given their respective ages when they married, Clifford is likely to have lowered his :-) On the Marriage Certificate he was shown as 44 and his wife was 23. If anything, I think his wife may have pushed her age up by a few months :-S

I'm still exploring all avenues

Regards

Allan

are there any Clifford Mortimers with father Joseph born earlier or later than the putative birth year suggested by his marriage certificate??


I'm wondering if he lied about his age :-)

Hi Allan
Here in NZ the libraries have Ancestry and FMP free You don't have to book a computer just be a member

I would have thought Australia would be the same

Hello again

One thing that I did forget: I have a list of all Clifford's born between 1858 and 1861. I'm going through each one to see if their mother's remarried, but it's a long process, not to mention boring :-\ :-D

No success so far :-(

Regards

Allan

Hi Florence

No I don't have Clifford's birth certificate: that's the problem.

I have nothing prior to his marriage certificate in 1904. The residential address given on that for both Clifford and Adelaide was (and still is) a hotel in Blackpool.

I can find no trace of Clifford on any official document prior to his 1904 marriage I know that he was an artist, described on his marriage certificate as 'Decorative' artist and on his death certificate as 'Decorative Artist (Cinema and Theatre)' so at one stage I'm assuming that he was a Set designer.

He also appears in a couple of trades Directories so I imagine that he was also an Interior Decorator.

Regards

Allan

Good afternoon Allan,
have been searching around and rereading all the info. Do you have the birth cert for clifford?

Florence
in the hebrides :-)

PS going off to do dinner now so will look in later this evening.

Thanks, Florence

Mandurah is about 100 km north of us. It is a large City, and Halls Head one of its suburbs would be about 10km south of the City Centre, so only 90 kms from us.

Until they opened the new highway a few years ago we had to go through Mandurah to get to Perth. We frequently go to Mandurah. It is a very nice place

Regards

Allan