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FRENCH TRANSLATION HELP REQUIRED

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 5 Feb 2009 02:02

Hi,

I have an ancestor by the name of;

Thomas Louis Kirkland Le Normant De Kergrist

He was born in 1813, most possibly in Ashby De La Zouch, Leicestershire.

This is his parents marriage;

MARY ANN KIRKLAND Pedigree
Female

Marriages:
Spouse: LOUIS FRANCOIS LE NORMANT
Marriage: 04 JUN 1812 Ashby De La Zouch, Leicester, England

I know Thomas was the Govenor of Martinique at some point but that is all I know, because I cannot read French when I google his name.

I would love to know if he had any other siblings, who he married and whether he had children.

I would be extremely gratefull for any assistance.


I have covered the Kirkland family fully and would just like to try and find out more about my French ancestors.

Many thanks for your time,


Dee x

Vicci

Vicci Report 5 Feb 2009 02:39

before you open up the we page you see see "translate this page"
click on that and it will do it all for you.

He was govenor 1875-1877

BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 5 Feb 2009 02:42

Hi Victoria,

many thanks for your reply, I've tried that though and I still can't seem to get a great deal of info.

Any ideas??

Dee x

BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 5 Feb 2009 02:48

Just spotted this;

Rear Vice-admirals.

20. Dec 8, 1870 NORMALIZING IT of KERGRIST (Thomas-Louis-Kirkland) (1813-1895): Commander (14/01/65), Ordering the Navy in Algeria.


Dee x

BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 5 Feb 2009 03:00

Could someone help with this please;

Reims - NapoléonPrisonnier.com- Translate
De la campagne de France à la mise au tombeau de porphyre, découvrez ... François Louis ... De Kergrist, lieut, B 13 mars 1814 Reprise de Reims ...www.napoleonprisonnier.com/lieux/reims.html

Unfortunately it will not translate.

I know this is Thomas's father, because he was a Napoleonic prisoner of war.

Ppppplllleeaaassseeeeeee.


Dee x

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 03:43

Here ya go.

Just putting the French here so I can see it, now that the stupid reply box is at the top of the stupid thread ...

Reims - NapoléonPrisonnier.com- Translate
De la campagne de France à la mise au tombeau de porphyre, découvrez ... François Louis ... De Kergrist, lieut, B 13 mars 1814 Reprise de Reims ...www.napoleonprisonnier.com/lieux/reims.html

Oh, better, I'll go to the link. Since that there is just bumph.

CAVALERIE - cavalry
3e Régiment de garde d’honneur
-- 3rd Regiment guard of honour

De Belmont- Briançon, col major, T
Legout- Duplessis, capit, B
De Kergrist, lieut, B 13 mars 1814 Reprise de Reims
-- 13 March 1814 Retaking of Reims
-- I don't know what the "B" stands for
Martin de Bourgon, lieut, B
Sapinauld, lieut, B


Okay, this is a very long text about the history of Reims. I'm going to try to pick out relevant bits.


Visite de la ville par Bonaparte

A quatre heures et demie de l’après-midi, le Premier Consul montait à cheval et parcourait la ville escorté de sa garde d’honneur. Il visitait ensuite deux manufactures, celle du maire Jobert-Lucas et celle de Dérodé.
(there's more, but this sets the scene enough)

Bonaparte visits the city
(I think this was in the summer of 1803, on a tour in preparation for resumption of war with England; there were balls and concerts)

At 4:30 pm, the First Consul got on his horse and rode through the city, escorted by his guard of honour. He then visited two (I assume woolen mills, since it says Reims was renown for wool), the one belonging to mayor Jobert-Lucas and the one (in? belonging to?) Dérodé.

Notes:
1/ La Garde d’Honneur était une unité de parade temporaire qui servait uniquement le temps des visites officielles dans les villes concernées. Elle était recrutée parmi les jeunes gens de bonne famille et elle avait pour tâche d’escorter le chef de l’Etat aux côtés de l’armée. A Reims pour la venue du Premier Consul elle se composa d’une soixantaine d’hommes à cheval et à pied qui avaient pour l’occasion été pris dans le corps des pompiers qui venait d’être crée. Mais ils reçurent un uniforme de circonstance.

1. The Guard of Honour was a temporary parade unit that served only when there were official visits in the towns in question. It was recruited from among young people of good families, and its job was to escort the Head of State alongside the army. In Reins, for the First Consul's visit, it was composed of some 60 men on horse and foot, who were selected for the occasion from the firefighting corps that had just been created. However, they were given appropriate uniforms for the occasion.

This doesn't really seem to relate to your man, since this is about the visit in 1803.


There is then a long description of the Battle of Reims, 13 March 1814.


OFFICIERS TUES ET BLESSES EN 1814 AU COMBAT DE REIMS
Officers killed and wounded in 1814 at the battle of Reims.

Ah, okay, "B" is blessé, i.e. wounded. He wasn't killed in the battle.

He was a Lieutenant in the 3rd regiment of the guard of honour, and he was injured at the Battle of Reins on March 13, 1814, in the retaking of Reims (by the French, I assume).


Lemme see what else I can find about him.

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 03:47

btw, while the other names in the google snippet looked like your man's father, they weren't -- the full name was François Louis Jérôme BARON 1750-1833. Just coincidence it was on the same page.

So is it likely that the de Kergrist who fought at the battle of Reims in 1814 is your man's father? I'm not quite getting this, but I kind of think not ... that one was fighting for the French ...

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 04:09

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Martinique.htm

Martinique
Governors
1875 - 1877 Thomas Louis Kirkland Le Normant (b. 1813 - d. 1895)
de Kergrist

Just to get my bearings.


http://web.genealogie.free.fr/Les_militaires/France/Annuaires_maritimes/Annuaire_maritime_1871.htm

Annuaire maritime de 1871.
1871 Maritime Yearbook

Première section: Activité et Disponibilité.
Section 1 - Periods when active and available

Contre-Amiraux. - some kind of admirals ;) Rear, probably.

23. 08 déc 1870 LE NORMANT de KERGRIST (Thomas-Louis-Kirkland) (1813-1895): Commandeur (14/01/65).



http://ialdese.free.fr/histoire.htm

This is about Tunisia ....


Ce qui va déterminer le gouvernement tunisien à y manifester une présence est l'installation sans autorisation des pêcheurs italiens. La France, très attentive à ce qui se passe sur sa frontière orientale, est d'ailleurs à l'origine de cette manifestation de propriété. Elle craint que l'Italie ne s'y installe et prenne alors pied des deux cotés du détroit de Malte, comme le montre l'extrait d'une lettre écrite par le Commandant Mouchez au Contre-amiral Kergrist.

What was do made the Tunisian government decide to make its presence known was when some Italian fishers settled without permission. France, which was keeping a very watchful eye on what was happening on its western border, was in fact the instigator of this assertion of ownership. It was afraid that Italy would settle there and then have a foothold on both sides of the strait of Malta, as can be seen from this excerpt from a letter written by commander Mouchez to rear admiral Kergrist.

Annexe à la lettre au ministre de la marine du 15 Sept 1873 par LE NORMANT de KERGRIST (Thomas-Louis-Kirkland), Commandant de la Marine en Algérie
Alger, Le 5 Septembre 1873

Attachment to the letter to the naval minister dated 15 sept 1873 from LE NORMANT de KERGRIST (Thomas-Louis-Kirkland), naval commander in Algeria
Algiers, September 5, 1873

Le contre Amiral
commandant la marine
en Algérie

The rear admiral
naval commander
in Algeria
(addressed to de Kergrist, who passed it on to the minister)

Note sur l’île de la Galite

Note about La Galite island

Amiral,

Nos travaux hydrographiques m’ayant conduit à l’île de la Galite et à Tabarque, j’ai eu l’occasion de constater quelques faits qui me paraissent de nature à devoir éveiller sérieusement l’attention du Gouvernement de l’Algérie.

When our charting work took me to La Galite island and Tabarque, I had an opportunity to observe a few facts that seem to me such as to call for serious attention from the Government of Algeria.

Les italiens paraissent désirer occuper l’île de la Galite et le Consul de cette nation prend depuis quelque temps à La Calle un ton d’autorité qui semble justifier les vues ambitieuses qu’on lui prête.

The Italians seem to want to occupy La Galite island and the Italian Consul has for some time been taking a tone of authority at La Calle which seems to justify the ambitious ideas being attributed to him.

Deux italiens avec une femme et plusieurs enfants sont établis depuis plusieurs mois sur l’île de la Galite et commencent à cultiver le plateau supérieur qui est formé de terres très fertiles ; c’est un commencement d’occupation effective qui établira plus tard des droits acquis quand d’autres Italiens seront venus rejoindre leurs compatriotes et donner quelque importance à l’établissement.

Two Italians with a woman and several chlidren settled on La Galite island a few months ago and have started cultivating the upper plateau, which is made up of very fertile land; this is a start on an effective occupation which will later be the basis for vested rights when other Italians come to join their countrypeople and expand the settlement.

Il sera très facile de faire naître alors quelque incident qui permettra de s’y établir officiellement. Si cette prévision devait se réaliser ce serait un événement désastreux pour La Calle, pour la pêche du Corail (et) pour la sûreté de nos côtes orientales de l’Algérie.

It will be very easy to generate some incident then that will allow them to settle officially. If this prediction were to come to pass it would be disastrous for La Calle, for coral fishing and for the security of our western coasts in Algeria.

Le commandant du Narval. Signé Mouchez

Commander of Narval. Signed Mouchez



It's a bit hard to know whether I've got it all right without delving into the history and geography, but I thought that might be an interesting bit. De Kergrist was the head man of the navy at the time, I gather.

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 04:15

Back to what you really want to know -- I'd translate this, but it's in English. ;)

Searched for

"LOUIS FRANCOIS LE NORMANT"


http://gw0.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=desjdek&lang=en;i=14347

Louis François le NORMANT de KERGRIST
Individual Individual

* Birth 30 November 1779 - Chatelaudren
* Baptism 3 December 1779 - Chatelaudren
* Died 13 August 1859 - Brest , age at death: 79 years old
* Capitaine de vaisseau
-- ship's captain

Parents Parents

* Louis Jacques le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1752
* Marie Thérèse Hyacinthe COUPPE du PORTBLANC 1757-1822

Spouse(s) and child(ren)

* Married 25 July 1814, Chatelaudren, to Mary Ann KIRKLAND 1789-1856,
o Marie Thérèse Rose-Mary le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1814-1882
o Céline Louise Rose le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1823-1918

-- where is Thomas Louis Kirkland Le Normant De Kergrist??
Absent from list of children.

Siblings
( * Louis François le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1779-1859)
* Hyacinthe Félix le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1781-1781
* Marie Thérèse Rose le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1784-1873
* Françoise Jeanne Augustine le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1786-1821
* Zoé Bonne le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1796-1798


I assume you can contact that tree owner. You would think that if TLKleNdeK were a member of that family, he'd have him in the tree!

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 04:35

What I can't figure out is why / how someone who was an officer in Napoleon's army and injured in March 1814 at Reims would have been marrying an English woman in July 1814.

Louis François died in Brest as did his daughters. The marriage, per that tree, was in Chatelaudren, in Bretagne. You have Thomas Louis being born in Ashby De La Zouch, Leicestershire. What would one of Napoleon's officers have been doing in Ashby De La Zouch, Leicestershire in 1812-1813??

Or was Mary Ann Kirkland in France and returned to England for the birth ... which seems to have been before her marriage?

Mind you, you have the marriage as 1812, while the other tree owner has it as 1814. Is there a verified source for 1812?

... Indeed there is. Batch M064502 in the IGI.

Very very odd, if you ask me! And where would that other tree owner have a different date and place for the marriage from?

But from poking around that tree, I see your Le Normants are mixed up with my Le Moines at some point back in the mists of time. ;)

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 04:42

Oh. You said Thomas's father was a Napoleonic prisoner of war. A French prisoner, of the English. ?

In Ashby de la Zouch? Married there in 1812, but by the spring of 1814 he was back fighting for Napoleon? Maybe a prisoner exchange.

My head hurts. ;)

Maybe he *re*married Mary Ann Kirkland in France, the summer of 1814 ... in a Roman Catholic ceremony perhaps ...


EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 05:02

Could Thomas have been Mary Ann's child before marriage, adopted into the Le Normant de Kergrist clan (and with the name Louis added to his name maybe)?

The tree I cited has this for her:

* Birth 5 May 1789 - Ashby de la Zouch (Angleterre)
* Died 15 March 1856 - Brest , age at death: 66 years old

Here is her christening in the IGI:

MARY ANN KIRKLAND
Christening: 05 MAY 1789 Ashby De La Zouch, Leicester, England
Father: THOMAS KIRKLAND
Mother: MARY (some submissions say Mary Smith)
Batch No.: C064502

One would think it unusual that the first son of a Le Normant de Kergrist would not be named for that line. But not at all unusual for an unmarried woman to name her child for her father.

Several people have submitted that christening information to the IGI (with Ashby spelled Ashbey in several cases, an error perpetuating itself), but the above is extracted from parish registers (and is what you know, I assume).

She seems to have been duly baptised a Mormon, anyhow. Yeesh and yech. And methinks there may be some people a little too eager to claim French nobility in their lines in some cases.


EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 05:12

This would rot your socks.

The IGI has, for Ashby de la Zouch:

baptisms
C064502 1672-1812
C064501 1814-1872

No 1813.

You need to get your nose into some parish records to find whether Thomas's birth is there, I think!

You could volunteer to transcribe that year for FreeREG!

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 05:26

Googling

"normant" zouch

(you have to put Normant in quotations or google will look for Norman)

http://www.patrimoine-de-france.org/hommes/honneurs-265.html

yearbook of recipients of the Legion of Honour

• Le Normant De Kergre Alexandre Jean Marie
Né le 01/07/1785 à Cotes-du-nord - Guingamp
• Le Normant De Kergrist Francois Joseph Louis
Né le 30/11/1999 à
• Le Normant De Kergrist Thomas Louis Kickland <<
Né le 15/01/1813 à Angleterre - Astiby-de-la-zouch
• Le Normant De Lourmel Frederic Henry
Né le 12/07/1811 à Morbihan - Pontivy
• Le Normant De Kergre Alexandre Jean Marie
Né le 01/07/1785 à Cotes-du-nord - Guingamp
• Le Normant De Kergrist Francois Joseph Louis
Né le 30/11/1999 à ??
• Le Normant De Kergrist Thomas Louis Kickland
Né le 15/01/1813 à Angleterre - Astiby-de-la-zouch


Someone born 1999 has not been admitted to the Legion of Honour.


Have a look here:

http://search.geneanet.org/result.php3?lang=fr&
name=normant+de+kergrist&place=&country=&source=&x=0&y=0

surname interest list for le Normant de Kergrist. Brest and Chatelaudren, and Ashby and Zouch, are included. If you need help communicating with anybody on the list, poke me again!



BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 5 Feb 2009 10:36

Evie,

I know I dont have to tell you this, as you already know it, but YOU'RE A STAR!!!!!

My Kirklands were prominent people of Ashby, there is a book about them and it states that although the Church did not encourage marriages to the prisoners they made an exeption for Mary Ann Kirkland because of who she was (And the reverend happened to be related, always helps!!!!) Mary Ann's father was Thomas Kirkland, the local doctor, maybe she wanted her father to deliver her child, who knows????

The family marked all BMD's in a diary and the marriage is in there.

Mary Anns brother was Captain Nicholas Smith Kirkland, he served in the 27th Enniskillin Dragoons (27th foot regiment), so maybe this had something to do with the prisoners being where they were???

I have looked again in the book and it states that one of Mary Ann's nieces (on the Kirkland side) made the journey to Brest to see her cousin. So this ties in nicely.


Just having a play now with Geneanet, I will try and make contact, hope they understand me!!!

A very large sincere thanks to you Evie, I can see that I took up a large portion of your time, I do really appreciate it.

Dee xxxx

BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 5 Feb 2009 11:10

Evie,

Found this;

MARIE THERESE ROSE LE WORMANT Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 16 FEB 1817 Ashby De La Zouch, Leicester, England

Parents:
Father: LOUIS FRANCIS LE WORMANT Family
Mother: MARY ANN DE KIGRIST



Do you think this could be Marie Thérèse Rose-Mary le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1814-1882????


BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 5 Feb 2009 11:31

Found an extract from the book, it says,

" Kergrist and Mary Ann sailed to France with their baby son and registered their marrige before the Tribunal Civil at St Brieuc, Brittany o 25th January 1814. They returned to Ashby in 1817 for the baptism of their daughter Marie, Captain Nicholas Kirkland's daughter was also baptized the same time"

And so she was;

MARY ANN KIRKLAND Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 16 FEB 1817 Ashby De La Zouch, Leicester, England

Parents:
Father: NICHOLAS SMITH KIRKLAND Family
Mother: GRACE

There's some much in this book, but it's all over the place, something else I've spotted;

"Louis Francois le Normant De Kergrist, a Lieutentant in the French Navy, who was a prisoner of war on parole at Ashby from 1806 to 1814"


Dee xx

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 16:43

Now it makes sense!

My guesswork was almost on target in a couple of places. Registration of the marriage in France -- I should have thought of that, because I'd run into that question here at GR once before, the registers of "état civil", or civil status, that are the counterpart of civil registration of BMDs in our system.

Because Thomas's birth was not registered that way in France, it seems, people with trees like the one I excerpted have missed him altogether. You'd better let them know what an illustrious twig they are missing. I can never make my way around trees to figure out how the heck a tree owner is related to somebody, and I usually figure it's pretty distantly.

There were certainly a bunch of people with an interest in the names on that surname interest list though, so that should help.

It is unfortunately looking like Thomas was a career man who did not marry or have offspring. Hopefully, one of those interested people will know for sure.

Yes, I do think that MARIE THERESE ROSE LE WORMANT (yeesh) 1817 would definitely be Marie Thérèse Rose-Mary le NORMANT de KERGRIST 1814. The "Mary" there is a bit of a give-away. ;) The baptism date isn't the birth date, remember -- oh, that's right, you did find the record stating the birth and baptism dates and the explanation.

Such a lot of fraternizing among the upper classes, eh? The countries are at war, but we'll just sail across the channel ... They get married in England where he's a prisoner, go to France in January 1814, he's back fighting the British in March 1814 ...

So you're descended from a sibling of Mary? cousin? Not from Thomas, anyhow, I guess. ;)

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 5 Feb 2009 17:12

And just to add, another reason to want to find the actual record of Thomas's birth/baptism.

The only reference I see to his actual date of birth is in that list of Légion d'honneur members: 15/01/1813.

(I didn't translate it - "né le" is "born on".)

Mary married in June 1812:

Spouse: LOUIS FRANCOIS LE NORMANT
Marriage: 04 JUN 1812 Ashby De La Zouch, Leicester, England

Thomas was born 15 January 1813 (if that's accurate). He was well over 2 months premature. ;)

There may have been a reason why a prominent family got a dispensation from the rule against marrying prisoners of war!


And of course I should say: you're most welcome.

Mavis

Mavis Report 9 Feb 2013 19:06

I know this is some time since you were inquiring about Thomas Louis Kirkland le Normant de K'grist. I am just transcribing the Parish Records with his baptism..
St Helens Church Ashby de la Zouch Entry no. 63 on Page 008
17 Jun 1813 Thomas Louis Kirkland
Father Louis Francois
Mother Mary Ann
Fathers Surname Le Normant de K'grist
Home Chatelaudren Province of Brittany
Occupation French Prisoner of War
Hope this helps. MF