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I just proves we musnt accept all we see on the census . Even dates can be off. For instance I found a son 40 years older than his father.

How simple this would have been if you had checked Sheffield for any Herberts" just incase"
Another lesson we have all learned

Hi Quinsgran

I have bought some old maps at Family History Fairs, but until researching this current lot, I didn't have many rellies in Sheffield - I am about to inherit a whole clan! I do know the city a little, it is one of those places you go to once a year for Christmas shopping (not that I do that now), but I know little of the history. I have visited the family records centre (a terrible place).

Anyway, thanks for your help. I wouldn't have checked the marriage cert without you, cos I was semi-convinced he was not a local man.

Margaret

Margaret.
When I was visiting my mother in Middlesbrough I went to the bookshop and they had a History of Middlesbrough section.I got a Middlesbrough History in Maps.Published by The Cleveland and Teesside Local History Society. There was a separate booklet explaining the maps

I got 17 maps from 1618 beautifully drawn.

Map 2 showed the plots of land with little houses dotted about. At the bottom of the map it showed the names of those living at the houses.
The whole lot only cost me 5 pounds 50p. What a bargain.!

Perhaps you might be lucky and find something like that

I'm going to print all this off to show my future son-in-law's mother that it isn't just a case of tapping a few names into the computer to get the results, that it needs logic and thinking out of the box. It took me two years to find my great grandfather William Holland (I know have three of the buggers in different branches!), and though I got there in the end, I am absolutely certain that had I known then about the help on GR I'd have got there in a couple of weeks.

Best wishes

Margaret

Ellen Herbert b Q4 1838, Sheffield. £7 on its way!

Margaret

Hi Janey

Would have to find old maps, there is a site that does them. I can't find a Pond Lane existing now, but Pond Street and Pond Hill (run into one another) are still there today. I also noted on 1841 (I think) that the next road covered after the Herberts house was Arundel something, and that is in the same area, cos I parked there on Saturday! Pond Lane might be a mistake on the mariage cert, or so tiny as to not have been listed separately, likely demolished now, or was flooded at the time! Pond's Forge is a (new) busy area with lots of theatres, restaurants, leisure centre etc. now, probably so called after a Steel Forge on the site. None of that area has any dwellings nowadays (and hasn't had in my lifetime and probably not since the first tramline was built (as it ran along Pond Street). I can investigate more as my daughter lives there, just to convince myself.

I am happy with everyones findings (as happy as is possible without proof) unless others think I should carry on searching.

Many thanks

Margaret

Oh, no, seriously??

I have both those images open still, and I DIDN'T LOOK AT THE *** ADDRESS???

Sometimes it does take more than one head indeed. ;)

Yes, I do believe "I" dunnit. !


Oh, btw, in 1841 John Herbert on Pond St is living next door to a cutler ...

... and I almost thought we were all incredibly dunderheaded - in 1841, Wilkes and John are both shown on page 12 of district 9 ... but haha, one is in Sheffield Park and the other in Sheffield South ... just a crazy coincidence. ;)

Margaret.
I think the details fit and would be happy myself to accept it.

Its been a great search

I believe you have done it. Do you all agree? The John Herbert from Leeds, living Sheffield 1841 and 51 is living on Pond Street (as is Wilks on marriage in 1842). He has a likely son Wilk(e)s - the only Wilks Herbe* birth we have found - and he is a bricklayer. And what is Wilks Herbert's father on his marriage cert? - a bricklayer!

Thank you all for getting me to this. Esp not letting go of Wilks Herben not born in county (he perhaps didn't know what a county was, just knew he wasn't born in Sheffield) and for hammering home the Pond Lane/Street. I don't really think I will find anything better to fit the bill.

Now to find where he disappeared to after siring Sarah Ann, and where the happy couple were in 1851 (less important) but as I haven't found a marriage for Sarah to William Turner, maybe Wilks was still alive for some years. Maybe he went to the States or off to war or simply changed his name.

I'll have a look at some of the other Herberts suggested along the way.

Of course, youngest child Eleanor b 1839 might be on Free bmd to give mother's maiden name.

You have all done a lot of work. Sorry I didn't get it all right in the beginning.

Margaret

"Janey, it was the Wilkes Herben born Yorkshire."

Uh ... yes ...

The one I reproduced, which you hadn't initially done:

WILKS HERBEN
Christening: 13 SEP 1821 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBEN
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131


As I'd hoped I explained, I then assumed it was supposed to say HERBERT, and looked for births to JOHN HERBERT and ELLEN, and found what I would be pretty confident is that WILKS HERBEN's sister ELIZAB.:

ELIZAB. HERBERT
Christening: 10 JUN 1823 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBERT
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131

Same batch number, same parents, same location, close in age, HERBEN is a mistranscribed HERBERT.


He may not be your Wilkes Herbert, but he was definitely a Wilks Herbert. And that one would have been a few months shy of 20 at the 1841 census, so would appear as "15".


Unfortunately, in 1881 (when you can search by address) there is no "Pond" anything in Sheffield. It might have been possible to trace a household back to 1871 at the same location, and then a nearby household back to 1861, and so on back to 1841. I've done it. ;) But without the identity of some household at some time on the right street, it becomes impossible.

--- no, Ancestry changed its mind. There is a Pond Street in Sheffield in 1881. Unfortunately, it's one of those streets with courts and houses within courts. Almost 1500 names answer to Pond Street, Sheffield, in 1881 ...

Margaret.
I no longer subscribe to Ancestry so cant help. However you can check the enumerators district and find where Pond Lane is. Its a bit of a trawl because you dont know the area.

Janey, it was the Wilkes Herben born Yorkshire.

Quinsgran, I don't know how to search for Pond Lane in 1841. A couple of online indexes, but the best gives me Class, Piece, Book and Folio, whereas the census wants Piece, Folio and Page - and my various combinations don't fit. The online index doesn't actually have Pond Lane, but it must be around Pond Street/Hill - if I can find it!

Will come back to the Herbens asap Janey.

Margaret

A John Herbert + Eleanor couple did end up in Sheffield, for info:


1841:

John Herbert 50
Eleanor Herbert 49
Mary Ann Herbert 20
Sarah Herbert 10
Emma Herbert 6
Eleanor Herbert 2


1851:

John Herbert 61
Mary Herbert 36
Emma Herbert 17
Ellen Herbert 12


That John was a bricklayer.


The IGI has 3 births in Leeds, 1814-1830, with mother variously shown as Elanor, Eleanor and Ellen. (I imagine they are all the same couple - whether they are the one above, or that one is another one, possibly the parents of that "Wilks Herben", dunno.) When looking for Ellens it is wise to count Eleanors, and vice versa.

Let's go back to the "WILKS HERBEN" in your very first post.

WILKS HERBEN
Christening: 13 SEP 1821 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBEN
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131


Searching with the parents' names as HERBERT, we find:

ELIZAB. HERBERT
Christening: 10 JUN 1823 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBERT
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131


So HERBEN really is pretty certainly HERBERT.

And I think that just plain likely is your Wilkes.

There is a John Herbert + Ellin Gilbertson marriage in 1825 in Escrick that matches with most of the other John Herbert + Ellen births, so that wouldn't likely be the right couple.

However there are two births in Wheldrake (sorry, the geography is foreign to me) that could be relevant:

5. ELIZABETH HERBERT
Christening: 24 MAY 1831 Wheldrake, Yorkshire, England
6. WILLIAM HERBERT
Christening: 05 JUN 1827 Wheldrake, Yorkshire, England


... Okay, Cawood and Wheldrake are less than 10 miles apart, Cawood being southwest toward Leeds from Wheldrake.

Margaret.
Anyway of checking who is living at Pond Lane in 1841 since this is where Wilks was living when he married in 1842.

There might be family

Oops, sorry - imperfect recollection was that he appeared with a Yorkshire birthplace somewhere, hence the questioning of the out of county birthplace in 1841.

It would indeed fit nicely, if we could find him!

Not sure what you mean by his subsequent place of birth - I haven't found him other than in 1841.

Margaret

One child of John Herbert and Elizabeth Wilkes - Martha, 1823, Hopesay, Shropshire - extracted.

Confirmation of the line through the names, but obviously, many missing births in all generations!


In 1841, Elizabeth Wilkes Herbert is already widowed:

Elizabeth Herbert 40
Elizabeth Herbert 7
Mary Herbert 12
Margaret Herbert 12
John Herbert 9
Anne Herbert 5


It does just sound so nice and neat that their first child would have been Wilkes Herbert, doesn't it? ;)


And it would match with the possibility of the WH's birthplace in 1841 - out of county - being actually accurate, and his subsequent declared birthplace just being birthplace of convenience.

Agreed the submitted marriage (William Herbert and Martha Wilkes) looks okay and can only find one child, John b 1799. Marriage of John Herbert to Elizabeth Wilkes (oh heck!) 10/7/1823, Hopesay, Shropshire, likely the Elizabeth on the 1851 census. Birth of Elizabeth Wilkes 16/8/1795 Claverley, father Samuel, mother Mary (Clarke - submitted), again can only find one child, no brother Edward.

Elizabeth found in 1871 (Mother of Margaret Valentine age 40), death Jun 1879, Ludlow, age 83.

Edward possibly imprisoned 1853.

Very frustrting to see all these Wilkes and Herberts, but no Wilkes Herbert.

Margaret

I have to run, but you'll want to have a look at this household in 1851:


Elizabeth Herbert 56 - born Chiserley, Shropshire
Mary Herbert 25 - born Edgton
Ann Herbert 15
Samuel Wilks 90 - father of Elizabeth, born Bildows, Shropshire
Edward Wilks 50 - brother of Elizabeth, born Walsall, Shropshire
John Thomas 40
Ricd Groves 28
William Hamonds 16

Civil parish: Edgton
County/Island: Shropshire
Registration district: Clun