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Both of those marriages happened before 1841 so could both be children of


1841 Address: Moss Nook, Prescot, Sutton
WINDRES, John M 54 Lancashire
WINDRES, Ellen F 53 Lancashire
WINDRES, John M 20 Lancashire
WINDRES, Ellen F 14 Lancashire

also bricklayer.

I may be having a Eureka moment or I may just be seeing things I have looked at this for so long

Rhondda you have father of William who married Ann Hills as William.

Check 2 marriages below. It looks like he could be John. That would make the connection with my tree.


"William WINDERS was born in 1813 in Sutton, Lancashire, England.
Ann HILL(S) was born in 1811. She died in 1848/9 at the age of 38 in Prescot, Lancashire, England.1 William WINDERS
and Ann HILL(S) were married in Sep 1840 in Prescot, Lancashire, England.2 They appeared in the census in 1841 in
Prescot, Lancashire, England.3 William WINDERS and Ann HILL(S) had the following children:
1.1. John HILL (WINDERS) was born in Sep 1838 in St. Helens, Lancashire, England.4 He appeared in the census in
1841. He appeared in the census in 1851 in St. Helens, Lancashire, England.5 John died in Dec 1899 at the age of 61 in
Prescot, Lancashire, England."

Marriage: 9 Aug 1840 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
William Winders - (X), Of full age Labourer Bachelor of Windle
Ann Hill - (X), Of full age Spinster of Windle
Groom's Father: John Winders, Bricklayer
Bride's Father: Peter Hill, Collier
Witness: William Winstanley, (X); Alice Johnson, (X)
Married by Banns by: Charles Bullen
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 80, Entry 160
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Marriage: 16 Nov 1840 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
John Kilshaw - (X), Full age Collier Bachelor of Parr
Ann Winders - (X), Minor Spinster of Sutton
Groom's Father: Edward Kilshaw, Labourer
Bride's Father: John Winders, Bricklayer
Witness: Joseph Harrison, (X); Lydia Swift, (X)
Married by Banns by: Charles Bullen
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 88, Entry 175
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Cant see your Warrington birth.

New resource for you Sherlock

google lancashire opc. It is free and well put together.

William c1864 records show his father was John a glass splitter
We cannot find Johnglass splitter with William.

I have Birth cert of William Winders born 21st Nov 1893 19 Grafton Street.
Father William Winders coalminer
Mother Ellen Winders formerly Taylor.
Ellen was the informant and this is confirmed by census info.

yes sherlock we have the marriage cert for William and Ellen Taylor.
It records her fathers name as Smith.
I have gone through looking fot Thomas and Ellen and Mary together unsucessfully.

I think Preston is unlikely.
So far all events are recorded as
Parr
Sutton
Ecclestone St Helen's
Possibly Windle
and later into Farnworth and Widnes.

Prescot reg dist

Try looking at a map to get a feel for the area. Most of the industries were mining and chemicals. Offshoots from that would be glass(Pilkingtons) and brickmaking.

This one.....

"If William & Elizabeth Dewhurst married Preston 1836 and stayed in the Preston area there are 8 children (no William) born to a Winder with mmn = Dewhurst in Broughton, Preston"

We do not need a William. We need a John to be born to William Winders and Elizabeth Dewhurst. Is that a possibility???

Would you please do me a look up for this one in your Lancs records.

Births Sep 1838 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>WINDERS John Warrington 20 764

He is on the list of potential children of William and Elizabeth Winders nee Dewhurst.

I will go back and put notes against the other children.

Hi I'm back.

Refresh my memory that you have the marriage certificate for Ellen Taylor and William Winders. I can not see that written on the thread.

Will the certificate show the name of Ellen Taylor's father. That info will solve one of the major questions. By the look of the new info from lancashireAnn, I think the certificate is important.

Are we agreed that Ellen Taylor's father was Thomas Taylor.

are this lot all intermingled!

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1910
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
LEE * Thomas JOHNSON Mary Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/85/40
LEE * Thomas SMITH Mary Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended

ie Mary nee Smith 1st marriage Johnson

and to throw another into the meltin pot - what's with taylors living with Leathers

1881
Thomas TAYLOR Head M Male 42 Billinge, Lancashire, England Labourer
Ann TAYLOR Wife M Female 37 Windle, Lancashire, England Wife Labourer
John LEATHER Boarder W Male 54 Northwich, Cheshire, England Labourer
Margaret LEATHER Boarder U Female 12 Windle, Lancashire, England Scholar
Annie LEATHER Boarder U Female 6 Windle, Lancashire, England Scholar

Source Information:
Dwelling 58 City Windle
Census Place Windle, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341893
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3731 / 47
Page Number 35

I am still having trouble finding Thomas with May and Elle together.

this ne is interesting as same road as Johnsons


1901 census - household transcription
Person: TAYLOR, Thomas
Address: 150, Park Road, St Helens
TAYLOR, Thomas Head Married M 58 1843 Plate Layer (Railway)
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
TAYLOR, Ann Wife Married F 58 1843
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
LEATHER, Ann Servant Single F 25 1876 House Maid
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
CARTWRIGHT, Thomas Boarder Single M 28 1873 Laborer (Brick Layer)
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
WRIGHT, John Boarder Single M 46 1855 Coal Hewer
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
RAWLINSON, Maude Grand Child Single F 9 1892
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
LEATHER, Lydia Grand Child Single F 6 1895
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
LEATHER, Mary Grand Child Single F 2 1899
St Helens
Lancashire

1901 census - household transcription
Person: JOHNSON, John
Address: 210, Park Road, St Helens


JOHNSON, William Head Married M 36 1865 Coal Hewer
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Mary Wife Married F 35 1866
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 13 1888
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, John Son Single M 11 1890
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Florence Daughter Single F 9 1892
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, William Son Single M 6 1895
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Thomas Son Single M 3 1898
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
BOYLE, Elizabeth Mother-In-Law Widow F 60 1841
St Helens
Lancashire



ooo double check as Elisabeth boyle is mother in law

Ahh
Poor Sherlock.
Just imagine your ancestors might have been driving one just like it. That should keep you going.

Mary marries again

1911 census - household transcription
Person: JOHNSON, John
Address: 210 Park Road St Helens
LEE, Thomas Head Married M 37 1874 Coal Miner Hewer Lancashire St Helens VIEW
LEE, Mary Wife Married F 42 1869 Lancashire St Helens VIEW
JOHNSON, Elizabeth Stepdaughter Single F 23 1888 Glass Grinder Lancashire St Helens VIEW
JOHNSON, John Stepson M 21 1890 Glass Worker Bench Minder Lancashire St Helens VIEW
JOHNSON, Florence Stepdaughter F 19 1892 Glass Polisher Lancashire St Helens VIEW
JOHNSON, William Stepson M 16 1895 Bench Minder Lancashire St Helens VIEW
JOHNSON, Thomas Stepson M 13 1898 School Lancashire St Helens VIEW
JOHNSON, Bensiman Stepson M 9 1902 Lancashire St Helens VIEW
BOYLE, Elizabeth Boarder Widow F 50 1861 Office Cleaner Lancashire St Helens

Oh botheration. I want to stay and play. I have to go out today. All day. I am feeling so guilty that I have to do something other than what I really wish to do.

I will pay lots of attention to the new info this evening.

Mopes off muttering and snaps at OH for dragging her out to look at stupid vintage motor cars all day!!!

1891 census - household transcription
Person: JOHNSON, William
Address: 272, Park Road, Parr, St Helens
JOHNSON, William Head Married M 27 1864 Coal Miner
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Mary Wife Married F 24 1867
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 3 1888
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, John Son Single M 1 1890
St Helens
Lancashire VIEW
CAYLE, Elizabeth Boarder Widow F 32 1859 Colliery Office Cleaner
St Helens
Lancashire


I think we are getting somewhere with Ellen

1871 census - household transcription
Person: JOHNSON, Ralph
Address: Park Road, Parr, St Helen
JOHNSON, Ralph Head M 52 1819 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Sarah Wife F 41 1830 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Matthew Son M 14 1857 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, John Son M 11 1860 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Ralph Son M 9 1862 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, William Son M 7 1864 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Simeon Son M 5 1866 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Sarah Daughter F 3 1868 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Thomas Son M 1 1870 Lancashire VIEW
JOHNSON, Esther Mother F 84 1787 Lancashire



Its me LK again

How clever of you Lancashire Ann.

the 2 witnesses to Wm/Ellen marriage?

Marriage: 6 Nov 1887 St Peter, Parr, Lancashire, England
William Johnson - 24 Miner Bachelor of Parr
Mary Taylor - (X), 20 Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: Ralph Johnson, Boatman
Bride's Father: Thomas Taylor, Labourer
Witness: John Austin, (X); Elizabeth Austin, (X)
Married by Banns by: William Edmondson
Register: Marriages 1879 - 1894, Page 120, Entry 239
Source: LDS Film 1849640

for ref

Marriage: 22 Aug 1887 St Peter, Parr, Lancashire, England
William Winders - (X), 19 Miner Bachelor of Parr
Ellen Taylor - 19 Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: John Winders, Glass Maker
Bride's Father: Thomas Smith, Labourer
>>>>Witness: William Johnson; Mary Taylor, (X)<<<<<
Married by Banns by: A. A. Nunn
Register: Marriages 1879 - 1894, Page 116, Entry 231
Source: LDS Film 1849640

???? does this indicate bride's father was possibly written incorrectly for Ellen

just trying to work thru the summary here - not sure I am helping much!

the Winder Dorothy Mount marriage took place in Lancaster (which again has mmn on births on lancs bmd)

there are 8 births with mmn = Mount up to 1852