Find Ancestors

Yes the thought that he was only 15 did cross my mind. He was 37 in 1841 and Sarah 43. Who knows for sure what happened. I couldn't find James in 1841, the year he married Charlotte. Mind you the coincidence of a Joseph in Littlebury, where James was born is alluring! I'll still look around a bit.

I think you may never know. That Joseph would be only 15 when James was born.

Did we find a James in 1841?

Marg I have found a Joseph Bird (1804) married to a Sarah (1798)? in Littlebury in the Census of 1841. What do you think?

I've already done that Richard. I think you are at a dead end with his father.

You might do better with Charlotte Papworth. Though I recall she was a servant in 1841. Yes, she was. But her family might still be traceable.

I've looked through all the pages and there is nothing on Joseph before Jame's marriage. It shows on the James/Charlotte marriage cert that Joseph was a labourer. There's no mention of Jame's mother. Maybe Joseph was born in Littlebury as well, I guess around 1797, give or take a few years? I'll have a hunt around and see what I can find.

I can't remember if we found James with father Joseph just before his first marriage - and I'm not about to trawl through 11 pages to find out.

So I suppose you need to look for him next.

Hi Marg the other Death Cert arrived today and it's the correct one!

It reads............. Charlotte Bird wife of James Bird, Groom.
Died 16/Sept 1856 of Consumption aged 40 in Hockerill Bishops Stortford. So she was born in 1816 a bit older than James. So now we know she actually died and James remarried Ann Want. Where do we go from here?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Richard

Thanks for that info Margaret. Will sort it out.
I'm looking forward to getting the Cert. for Charlotte. Can we also look for Jame's father, Joseph)?
I'll see what I can find over the weekend.
Have a good weekend
Thanks again
Richard

Here you are:

The Register Office, Riverside House, 2 Hockerill Street, Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, CM23 2DL.
Tel: 01279 652273. Fax: 01279 461492.

I've just changed my mind - they only offer the "priority service" which costs £15, and don't appear to be half as flexible as many other register offices:

http://www.hertsdirect.org/comdirectory/register/copycert/

Might be worth giving them a call to see if they are able to search on the criteria that you have, costing £15.

Alternatively you could order one of the two from the GRO, and pray it is the right one. I copied this from the GRO website:

"If you are not aware of the required information and therefore cannot complete the required criteria you can telephone the Certificate Services Call Centre on 0845 603 7788 to place your order or write to Certificate Services at PO Box 2, Southport, Merseyside, PR8 2JD." Might be worth ringing them to say you have two possible Reference Numbers, and can they advise how to choose the right one.

How do I apply to the Bishops Stortford Office Marg? Is it through this site or somewhere else?

You are dead right, there are two deaths. James didn't marry Ann Want till Sep 1859, so it could be either of them.

I would apply to Bishops Storford Register Office, and specify that Charlotte should be the wife of James Bird, and aged about 40. If one of these fits and the other doesn't, it will only cost you for the right one.

Ah well foiled again! I am a complete novice to this as you can see!

Ok so I'll order the Death Cert for the 1856 death. 3a/126.

I also saw another death for a Charlotte Bird in 1858 in Bishops Stortford 3a/122, Oct -Dec quarter, should I order that one too, depends on what date did James marry Ann Want?

Let me know and I'll get onto it.

Dead simple, Richard - "we" order the right death certificate!

Back on pages 5/6/7 Janey identified two possible Charlotte Bird deaths - the one you have now got in 1853 and a later one in 1856 - Bishops Stortford, Sep qtr, 3a/126. On page 6, I said I didn't like the first death in Lambeth due to you g grandfather's birth being registered in the following quarter in Bishops Stortford. I had found the marriage of James Bird to Ann Want in 1858, and you got the birth cert of their first child to prove the parentage. So clearly a death in 1856 for Charlotte was perfectly feasible.

Incidentally, it was Janey, not me, who gave you the reference for the 1853 death, but a few messages later she advised you to get the later death certificate, and if it proved wrong, get the earlier one.

So we all assumed that is what you would do - but you must have had your specs on upside down!

Hi Margaret.
I asked for Charlotte Papworth's Death Cert and I gave the details that you sent me on page 6.
Deaths Sept. 1853
Bird Charlotte Lambeth 1d 221
The Death Cert came for a Charlotte Bird (aged 20) died on the 15/9/1853 but I think not the one we want.
It states Charlotte Bird's father was Richard Bird (milkman) and mother Elizabeth Bird. So I guess this is not our Charlotte unless James married into the family!! So where do we go from here?

Marg, any chance of finding Joseph's birth and place?

Thanks for that Margaret, it fascinates me how all this unravels!!

I just looked for a marriage about the time of Mary Ann's birth. There were a couple of possibles, but she seemed to fit the best. The purpose of getting that was, of course, to prove that Joseph was a coachman/groom.

Hi Marg
I will go down the path of trying to find the burials sometime, thanks for that tip.

One thing amazes me is how did you get Ann Want (Bird) into the mixture? I looked her up in the 1871 census and she is widowed, laundress with 3 daughters, one of which is Mary Ann Bird. I now have Mary Ann's Birth Cert. showing James as the father and Ann as mother but HOW did you originally find her as a link?

I've ordered Charlotte Papworth's Death Cert, so guess it will be a couple of weeks before I get that.

Thanks again
Richard

Who was the informant on the death of James?

Yes, you have told us of the marriage of James and Charlotte already.

Richard, it is a great shame that you were led up the garden path with the wrong family, but remember that your uncle was dealing with records that were much less accessible than current records, and he was probably doing it entirely alone. We don't know where he got the idea about a jeweller from, and maybe the Bird's of Birmingham were related in some way.

I don't think I, or Janey, would say we have this 100% watertight but our findings seems a lot more likely. Hard to say what would make it watertight. Not helped by (Thomas) Henry going abroad. Perhaps if he'd stayed in England, Ann Bird would have shown up living with him at some point, that would have helped, or even his Papworth grandparents.

It's the closest we can do, and I think it is right, and I wouldn't be one to take the easy way out just to make things fit.

I think you have probably learnt a lot about the process of finding your ancestors - proof, proof and more proof. Take only a little notice of what family members tell you, and research from scratch for yourself.

As an extra bit of research, you could try finding out where everyone is buried and if there are any clues from that. Quite likely in municipal cemeteries. I have some great help from such in the past. It might tie up a few loose ends for you.

Come back when you have more info.

Kind regards

Margaret

Marg I have the marriage Cert already but not the Death Cert for Charlotte. I'll order the Death Cert now.

The Marriage Cert states Jame's father was a Joseph Bird, labourer and Charlotte's father was James Papworth, labourer as well. Jame's Bird's residence at the time of marriage states Saffron Walden and Charlotte's as St Johns.

Marriage date is 17/10/1841 at the Parish Church All Saints in the County of Huntingdon and registered in Huntingdon

Seems like we are getting to the bones of it now, thanks to you and Janey. It's been a shame I had all that wrong info all these years as I would have loved my Dad to know all this but he has now passed away as have all his siblings.

Anyway on with the search!