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I think you should. And the death of Charlotte Papworth, to see we have guessed right.

Who was the informant on the death of James?

Hi Marg, thanks for all that work!

I do think you have the correct story.

So I should order the marriage Cert now for James and Charlotte to get his parents name.

I'll get on to it and hopefully get the ordering process right this time!

Many thanks
Richard

At last!

So let's get this right, in reverse order.

Grandfather Herbert Bird born India to Henry Bird and Annie Ellen Williams. She was Henry's second wife, his first being Elizabeth Purnell of Somerset, who died in India.

Henry Bird was born Thomas Henry in 1853 in Bishops Stortford to James Bird and Charlotte Papworth. James Bird was a coachman/groom. Charlotte's parents were James Papworth and Elizabeth Wilkinson.

Charlotte died Bishops Stortford Sep 1856, James remarried Ann Want in 1858 and in 1861 the family was living in Lambeth (but James was then a gardener - though his lodger was a coachman), which explains why (Thomas) Henry joined the army in London in 1870 and went to India.

James died Feb 1866, a coachman, in Brixton. He was born in 1819, in Littlebury, Essex.

So, no Birmingham Jeweller in that lot.

What are we missing now?

We don't know the parents of James - we need his marriage to Charlotte Papworth for that.

The only "grey area" in this is that Henry was really Thomas Henry. He forgot that on his two marriages, but his son Herbert remembered on his own marriage, but got the names the wrong way round.

All is solved, I think.

Hi Margaret James Bird Death Cert says he died at age 47 in Brixton County of Surrey 21/2/1866.
Died at 11 Elm Grove, Brixton Hill
Occupation Groom.
That makes him born in 1819.

Mary Ann, James' daughter born 4/6/1860 at New Park Road Brixton Hill, County of Surrey
Mother is Ann Bird formerly Ann Want.
Occupation of James is shown as Private Coachman.

Hope this is useful for you.
Cheers
Richard (look forward to getting the info from you )

Hi there, welcome back and I hope you had a great holiday.
Still nothing as yet but I just received a confirmation of order about 3 days ago so here's hoping!!

15th May now, any certs arrived Richard?

Still no certs have arrived, guess it;s a bit early yet.

Hi Margaret, the Certificate says " Parish Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church". by Banns. R. Haworth.

Have a great holiday Margaret and thanks for all your work for me, I really appreciate it.

Cheers for now
Richard

So Charlotte Matlock may be a relative, a friend, or a stranger off the street, drafted in to witness the marriage. Was the marriage by banns or by licence? Not quite sure why I am asking that, but you never know.

Am off on hols tomorrow. Will have to leave you to it for a while.

Hehehhe, probably was the case!

Who knows - he might have said "cow man" and the registrar heard "coachman". ;) It's not like he could read it!

Hi Janey, I have taken that name off, sorry about that.

I am absolutely sure that it says Coachman as the occupation of Thomas Henry's father. It's very clear on the cert copy. One of the few things that IS intelligible!

But that is on the 1853 BIRTH CERT. of Thomas Henry.

Jame's 1841 MARRIAGE CERT. clearly shows Labourer.

Hi Margaret I have looked hard at the Charlotte Matlock name and I have come to the conclusion that it is not Charlotte's mother because next to her name is a very faint "X" and next to that says her mark, which looks very much like the words, "her mother". One other thing is that I have found on the Cert is that Charlotte Papworth is a servant and in the "Residence at the time of marriage" column it say St. Johns.

There are Charlottes all over the place, mainly southern, but not so restricted as Tryphenas - my Joseph Dallorzo had a Tryphena or two, Northants, you will remember him well!

Waiting for Richard to tell us how he knows Charlotte Matlock is Charlotte Papworth's mother.

No Charlotte Matlock marriage to a Papworth on IGI (only 2 Charlotte Matlocks in the whole country), all years.

No Charlotte Papworth marrying a Mr Matlock. Anywhere. Anytime.

Maybe she married 3 times? Nothing. I'm not stretching to 4 times.

Ah. Second married name. Duh. ;)

But no, it doesn't appear on a cert.

Charlotte may have been a region/era-specific favourite name (like my Tryphoena, part of a pocket of them in Northamptonshire, not otherwise in my family). There are several Charlotte Papworths there around that time, even.


Richard, are you absolutely certain that the 1841 marriage certificate says "coachman" -- and not "cow man"? "Cow Man (ag)" is what the 1841 census says, for James Bird in Elsenham.

I think your James Bird is the one in Much Hadlam, Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, in 1841, ag lab.

"Coachman" is a pretty specific and rather higher status/paying job and it would be surprising to see one be a "cow man" in the next census, I think.

Janey, I was assuming that Charlotte Papworth's mother had remarried by the time of her daughter's marriage, to a Matlock. But I wanted to know how James knew this was Charlotte's mother.

That sort of detail doesn't appear on a marriage certificate.

If Charlotte Matlock was Charlotte Papworth's mother, she would be Charlotte Papworth herself by the time her daughter was born/married.

You two - can you delete the name of the member with the James Bird in her tree? I don't put my full real name on the boards, and she might not want hers here.


Re the Charlotte Papworth daughter of James Papworth and Elizabeth Wilkinson -- their children in the same batch were

Father: James Papworth, Mother: Elizabeth
Batch Number: C065761

1. SARAH PAPWORTH - Christening: 12 NOV 1823 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
2. CHARLOTTE PAPWORTH - Christening: 21 JAN 1817 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
3. ANNA PAPWORTH - Christening: 11 MAR 1819 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
4. RACHEL PAPWORTH - Christening: 27 NOV 1821 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
5. JAMES PAPWORTH -Christening: 22 JUN 1825 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England


In 1841 there is

Name: Rachel Papworth
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Where born: Huntingdonshire, England

>> Civil parish: Warboys
Hundred: Hurstingstone
County/Island: Huntingdonshire


Warboys is the place of birth given by Charlotte Bird in 1851. There are numerous Papworths in Warboys, although none of those other children's names.

Aha, here's the James household, in St Ives (same reg dist, St Ives), I think:

Jas Papworth 45
Elzh Papworth 25
Jas Papworth 15
Eliz Papworth 10

Hi Richard,

I'll think some more about EDIT your contact (sorry) and her James/Charlotte, but they don't sound quite right. All the same, it would be worth asking her for access to her tree and seeing if anything jumps out - but please beware of going down yet another wrong path - you have apparently got evidence that your lot originated in Bishops Stortford, so let's stick with them for now.

So, are you saying the marriage cert of James Bird to Charlotte Papworth gave her mother's name? Most unusual to give a mother's name. Or are you guessing that Charlotte Matlock is her mother, just cos she was a witness? Far more likely to be a cousin or an aunt.

Richard said earlier that James was a coachman on marriage to Charlotte - but I now notice he has also said he was a labourer.

I assume that birth cert of Thomas Henry DOES have the mother's maiden name of Papworth, Richard? And what is the occupation of his father?

You now tell us:

"I have also found on a cert that I just received that Charlotte's mother was a Charlotte Matlock. The marriage Cert of James and Charlotte show a Robert Sisman and Charlotte Matlock as witnesses".

What cert is this?

The only baptism I can see of Charlotte (Bird) is this one with mother Elizabeth:

CHARLOTTE PAPWORTH Pedigree
Female
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 21 JAN 1817 Saint Marys-Wesleyan, Huntingdon Circuit, Huntingdon, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: JAMES PAPWORTH Family
Mother: ELIZABETH WILKINSON

I can't find a Charlotte Matlock in 1841, only a Charlotte Medlock.

No, they won't send certificates as an email attachment, they'll come by snail mail and at the moment they are taking a couple of weeks.

Margaret and Janey I have ordered the Birth and Death Certs for Mary Ann Bird and James Bird, so lets see what we can get from those. I guess they will take a week or so? Can one order these things and get it sent on an email attachment?