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Hi Marion, have seen this family a number of times when I have been searching the elec roll online for Tony. They stay at Cromwell st but it looks like John B snr dies and at some point they move to Wharton st , early 1920s, described as Washwood Heath/Bromford ward. Just mention this incase it falls into place anywhere with any of your wide ranging family knowledge!

Bw

vanessa

No probs Tony.
What else is there to do on a pouring wet,windy Sunday in Menorca?

Hi Marion
Thank you so much for this, I've only just seen it (Sunday evening 23.00 hrs here), I just don't know how you do it, we've searched for John & Ernest Babington/Babbington and have not come across this one before. It'll be Tuesday before we can look at it properly.

Thanks also to Vanessa for the post you have added, not had time to digest it properly, I really am gratefull for all your help.

Thanks for looking that up Vanessa. It always bugs me when I can´t follow through.
Bit of a change of occupation from pipe fitter to greengrocer. Pity they weren´t still in the same house. Did you notice they have an Ernest, although he was obviously too young to have been anyones father at the time we´re looking at.
Perhaps Tony can shed some light when he´s sorted out his house move.
Marion

Household information
Address 119 Cromwell St Nechells B'Ham
Parish Aston
Town Nechells B Ham
Type of Building Shop (Green Grocery)
Number of Rooms 6
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN18250 RG78PN1101 RD385 SD3 ED20 SN75
Administrative County Warwickshire
Registration District Aston
Registration Sub District Duddeston
Enumeration District 20
Householder 1
Name John H Babington
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Condition / Years Married Married
Gender M
Age 36
Estimated Year of Birth 1875
Occupation Greengrocer
Employed Y
Working at Home Y
Place of Birth Aston
Householder 2
Name Sarah Babington
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Condition / Years Married Married / 13 Years
Total Children Born Alive 5
Children Still Living 5
Gender F
Age 38
Estimated Year of Birth 1873
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Bham
Householder 3
Name Norman J Babington
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender M
Age 11
Estimated Year of Birth 1900
Occupation School
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Aston
Householder 4
Name Harold Houlster Babington
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender M
Age 9
Estimated Year of Birth 1902
Occupation School
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Aston
Householder 5
Name Horace Babington
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender M
Age 6
Estimated Year of Birth 1905
Occupation School
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Aston
Householder 6
Name Ernest Babington
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender M
Age 5
Estimated Year of Birth 1906
Occupation School
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Aston
Householder 7
Name Ivy Rose Hannah Babington
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender F
Age 1
Estimated Year of Birth 1910
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Erdington

Hi Tony.
I know you´re busily bedding down for the winter at the moment, but thought I would add this for when you are back because otherwise I´ll forget.
Have you any idea what the link is with John Babbington who in 1901 is living at 2 Alfred Street with his wife Sarah & baby son Norman. He is 29 & a hot water pipe fitter. She is 28 & the baby is 1.
In 1891 he was at home with his father Thomas a 49 year old widower,jeweller & his siblings, Rose,25,William 21 Martha 19,Catherine 18,Florence 14 & Walter E 12.
The address was 5 Hartington Road, Off Asylum Road.
Sorry haven´t got acess to 1911 so haven´t been able to follow it through.
Marion

Hi Brummiejan
I found it more beneficial getting up to the 6th floor every week for my classes when the escalators were out of order & the lift was full.
Marion

Vanessa, happy to join you running up and down those aisles at the Central Library!! Could use the exercise ...
Jan

Hi Tony.
B´ham City Council have a website which includes a link to Libraries & Archives. I would try an e mail in the 1st instance as it´s cheaper than phoning & all they will probably tell you is their fee for doing look ups (which if I remember rightly, isn´t cheap)
Have you thought of joining the B´ham & Midlands Family History Society?
They may have other members who are linked to the family.
Marion

Hi Marion
Thank you for the information about John Babington and family, I agree the Babington/Clarke was too good to ignore.
Also thanks for the tip about the rates books, we're hoping that the fact William & Muriel living in the same house as Ellen lived in years before is no coincidence. When you suggest contacting the archivist, do you mean by email or telephone?
We're having a busy few days at the moment but hoping to get back into the research soon.

Hi Tony.
Do you think it is just coincidence that William Clarke & Muriel Hughes were living in the same house in1950 as Nellie was living in 1920.
It would suggest that either someone in the family owned the house or, if it was rented, some member of the family was in it for 30 years.
A look at the rates book for the 2 addresses will tell you who owned them.
They are on open shelves in Birmingham Archives but not sure how far into the 20th century. You could try contacting the archivist as it´s not a big job for them to have a quick look.
Marion

Thank you for finding this, it explains why we couldn't find some of the children living with Ellen once they reached 21, which we thought was the age people were eligible to vote. We didn't realise there were other criteria back then. We're learning all the time.

Hi Tony, just found your PM and the additions here to the thread . Looked at the archive info at Birmingham and found this amongst lots of other info.If you google "birmingham archives" , bottom of the page family history
Electoral roll--------These are the records of everyone registered to vote, in a certain year, in a certain place. People who did not register are not included, even though they may have been entitled to vote.



Who is included?

The lists show only those entitled to vote.

Initially no women had the vote. Before 1918 the right to vote was also linked with property, and the liability to pay tax. There have been a number of changes in voting rights; some of the
most important are listed below. Ask staff for the 'Voting Rights' sheet in the Genealogy folder, for further details.

1832

One man in seven had the vote

1869

Some unmarried women and widows were allowed to vote in local elections only.

1884

Two men in three could vote.

1918

Men over 21, women over 30.

1928

Everyone over 21.

1969

Everyone over 18


Possible inaccuracies and omissions

As already mentioned, women did not appear on any of the earlier lists, nor did men without property.

Doesn't answer all the questions but maybe some ?

Will have another go with the online site and see if any of your people turn up .

bw

Vanessa

More electoral roll info (includes info posted on previous page by Vanessa: -

1920 at 4 back of 19 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke

1922,1927 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke

1930 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke and Nellie Jane Babbington

1935 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke and Ellen Jane Babbington,William Clarke

1939 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Ellen Jane Babbington

1945,1950 at 4 back of 19 Alfred Street - William Clarke and Muriel Clarke

Where were the children? If voting age 21 suerly they would have appeared on electoral rolls?
Ellen Jane Babbington would have been 21 by 1920, where was she in 1920, 1922 and 1927? She was living with her mum Ellen Clarke in 1930, her son wasn't born until 1933.

Rosie/Rose May Babbington married in 1923, age 23, she married from 4 Bk 19 Alfred St, why wasn't she with her mum in 1920 & 1922?

Lilian didn't marry until 1928 age 25, why wasn't she with her mum in 1927? Why did she marry from 4 Bk 19 Alfred St?

Did the girls stay at 4 Bk 19 Alfred Street when Ellen moved to 4 Court 2 Alfred Street?

My dad Ernest Babington/Babbington didn't marry until 1933, age 23, he married from 34 White Rd Smethwick, where was he before this?

William Clarke married from 4 Bk 19 Alfred St in 1936

Only Ellen Jane Babbington remained in 1939, William had married in 1936 and Ellen Kirby Clarke had died in 1938

Can anyone help with this please?

Re post on 7 Oct, William Clarke's birth date has been confirmed as 21 September 1913 and in the description of informant box there is no X or words "mark of" or signature. I still haven't seen a copy yet.

Hi Vanessa

I hope you're still with us and the potential breakdown didn't happen. I'm sure there must be a word befuddled - it's so descriptive.

Love the idea of the Team Babbington tracksuits for you and BrummieJan! But the flinging of files etc - now we know you're cracking up and that maybe we ought not to be party to allowing you loose in the library. Although I don't expect they have ladies with hair in buns wearing spectacles saying Sshhhhhh all the time anymore!

Hi Anthony, and thanks for the messages . Well my mind has gone into overdrive and I am fairly befuddled ( is that a word ??)

Have had a heavy day at work so going to read all the new info again in the morning.

Nice to think I've become an honorary Babbington !! Do I get some kind of certificate for "contributions to family research " . Maybe I could get a tracksuit for my attack on the Archives at the library with "Team Babbington" on the back. Brummiejan and I could scuttle round ,
running up and down the isles flinging files and microfilm at each other. !

I'm going now before I have a breakdown at the computer .

Best wishes

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa

If you get the opportunity to look at the book of monumental inscriptions, my older brother says that Ellen's grave is in Handworth cemetary. He remembers seeing it as a child, from what he recalls it has a white head and gravestone with black lettering with the name Clarke on it. If it doesn't take up too much of your time and of course please do your own research first ours can wait until another visit, anything else written on it will hopefully confirm what we know and may add something we don't.

Edit..... sorry Vanessa because you are now an honorary Babbington I didn't think to give you dob info etc for Ellen: - birth, Dec Q 1875 Birmingham, death Jan 1938

Hi Jan

The addresses are on P 19, posted on 5th October.

As you can see above we've just had William's birth cert, the address is the same as the one Ellen was living at as Nellie Clarke in 1920.

Another step forward and another back! Can it get any worse?

William Clarke born 1913 West Bromwich - birth cert has arrived at long last: -

No: ?
When & where born: 21 September 1913 Bk 19 Alfred St Handsworth, B'ham
Name: William
Name & surname of father: Blank
Name, surname & maiden name of mother: Nellie Clarke
Occupation of father: Blank
Signature, description & residence of informant: Nellie Clarke, Mother, 19 Alfred St Handsworth (no X, words "mark of" or signature)
When registered: 29 October 1913

Going back to my post on 25 September re correct completion of birth certificates, I think the following section applies to the above info: -

Of column 4 - Name and Surname of the Father "this column should only be completed if the childs parents were married to each other. If this column is blank the mother was not married to the childs father, from 1875 it was possible for both parents who were not married to each other to be joint informants and then the fathers name will be entered into this column but, both parents would sign the informant section"

It looks like she ran out of names to give for the father or now she's older she's stopped caring about her reputation, whichever it was the father was not present when the birth was registered.

We still have William John Clarke named as his father on his marriage certificate but this sounds like it could have been an educated guess. Like on my dad Ernest's marriage cert his father was named as John Babbington (Ernest on his birth cert) maybe to match Ellen Jane's and Rosie May's, probably the Babbington children all assumed they had the same father if they didn't have a copy of Ernest's birth cert. Why on earth couldn't William have chosen John Clarke to match Lilian's dad I don't know.