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We have eventually ordered the death cert for John Thomas M Babington 1901 Ecclesall Bierlow, we know that some of you have been suggesting this for a while.
We hope that this will prove whether he was the father of my Auntie Nellie (Helen/Ellen Jane Babbington) & my Auntie May (Rosie/Rose May Babbington) and the 'husband' of Ellen Babington.
If he was then we will have to look even harder, maybe going back to an Ernest Babington (see pages 1 & 16), for a father for my dad Ernest Babington born 1910

Brilliant, thank you. I did put question in faq but it didn't work

Simply go to your post on the thread (Your first post), Click "Edit", Add "Updated" to the thread subject line and Click "Submit".

Thanks Jonesey, how do I add "Updated" to the thread title please? and have you any advice about dad's birth certificate?

Don't start a new thread. As you have already stated this may cause duplication of effort. You could modify your thread title slightly however so that those seeing it will note that something has changed. Suggest you add "Updated" to the thread title. You can also move the thread up the boards by "Nudging" it from time to time.

Good Morning Everyone
I've been really busy for the last few days putting all the information about Ellen Kirby Clarke on my 2 trees (have bigger one now on Ancestry, it's so much easier to copy family info from another members tree on there and my dad's sister's granddaughter has a huge tree on there.

I'm sure that you'll be interested in the fact that she was one of 7 children who's father died age 40 and when her mum died at 65 Ellen was only 15. To all of you who were wondering if they'd missed anything we have so far not found any marriages for her and it looks extremely unlikely that we ever will.

ADVICE please, having failed to find Ernest Babington my father's father as named on his birth certificate I have gone back to one of the earlier thoughts that maybe there was an error on his birth certificate. If whoever copied the details from the original document accidentally put my dad's name (Ernest Babington) into the box for father's name this may account for the fact that on dad's marriage certificate his father was named as John Babbington (deceased). How can I check this? Can I contact the GRO and ask for a check to be made?

ALSO people may see this thread near the top today and recognise it as one that's been around for a while so not read it, any advice on how I can inject interest? Should I start a new thread? If I do I would hate people to waste time looking for information that I already have and I'm sure you'll all agree I have a too much to put at the begining of a new thread

All advice gratefully received

Exciting news. Things are starting to fall into place.

Ozi

If I could add a little to Tess's post please: -

Muriel Lilian Hughes married my father's half brother William Clarke born 1913. Ellen Kirby Clarke was dad and William's mother.

Hi Christine
Glad you're still with us confused or not!

I think Marions mention above of Summer Lane, as the place the children were living in 1891, is the first time it's been on the thread.

We made contact with Marion through Ancestry, she is a cousin of my cousin, William Clarke's son, her grandmother was a sister of his grandmother and their mother was Flora Sewell. I think Tess has covered who Flora Sewell is and added a great deal more of interest, I need a while to take this all in.

Edwin Clarke died in 1881 and Sussana in 1890, 4 of the 7 children Louisa age 22, Elizabeth, Edwin and Ellen Kirby Clarke age 15 were living together in Birmingham on the 1891 census

Hi Elijah Hughes was married to Flora Sewell. On 1911 Census this family lived at 197, Ninevah Road.

in 1881 Census, the Sewell family (Father Thomas J Sewell aged 37, mother Esther aged 30), lived at 8 Court, 7, House Northwood Street. Amoung the children at that time were John A aged 9 and Flora (aged0)

John A Sewell went on to marry ------ (Selina?) Ryland, her sister Elizabeth married a Robert Clarke.

According to www.cwgc a son of Elizabeth and Robert Clarke - Sydney George Clarke died in 1918 aged 19. His family were then living in Alfred Road, Handsworh.

I have no idea if these two Clarke families are connected. However -
Thomas J. Sewell is the grandfather of Muriel Lilian Hughes.
John A Sewell is the uncle of Muriel and also the uncle (by marriage - i.e. his wife is the aunt) of Sydney George Clarke of Alfred Road Handsworth.

Just a little food for thought. hope I haven't complicated things too much.

Tess

Pleased to hear you've finally got details of the birth.

I'm confused with Marion's post above, have read through the rest of the thread again and can't see any mention of Summer Lane or Flora Sewells but there are a lot of deleted posts.

The family don't seem to be on Ancestry in 1891 unless they're mistranscribed.

Christine

n

Hi Anthony.
Had you noticed that Ellen´s sister Louisa had the middle name Hughes?
Just coincidence or could there be a connection?
In 1891 the brothers & sisters are all living together at 4house 42 court. Summer Lane.
Louisa Head single 22
Elizabeth sister single 18
Edwin brother single 17
Ellen sister single 15
Incidentally, Northwood Street where Ellen was born was where Flora Sewells family lived for much of their time.
Marion

Fab news Anthony - your family aren't the easiest are they? Might be a snail's pace but at least going forwards!
Jan

Congrats! Anthony,

It has obviously brightened up 'your' day !

Best of luck with the continuing search.

Dea x

Good Morning and what a wonderful morning it is!

It's arrived at last, the birth certificate for Ellen Kirby Clarke: -

No: 232
When & Where born: 30 Sept 1875, 86 Northwood Street, Birmingham
Name: Ellen Kirby.
Father: Edwin Clarke Mother; Sussana Elizabeth Clarke formerly Kirby
Occupation of Father: Press Tool Marker
Signature etc: X The mark of Sussana Elizabeth Clarke, Mother

Not yet conclusive that this is my grandmother but it's looking extremely likely

I will be working hard to find a definite connection between her and my family. I've found 6 siblings and am hoping to put them on the tree today so if, in the meantime, anyone can find any links at all I would be grateful.

I still need a birth record for John Babington/Babbington, a marriage between him and Ellen would be good but I don't think that there is one.

Thanks to all my very kind helpers, maybe this is the break we've been waiting for.

My cousin is expecting William Clarkes birth cert to be despatched on 27 Sept.

Hi Christine
Re the occupation of John Babington,: -
On Rosie May's birth cert (1900) John was an Edge Tool Grinder.
Previously, on the 1881 census John at age 16 was a Street Orderly Tender (Scay), on 1891 census age 26 he was a File Grinder and in 1901 age 35 he was a Shovel Belter.
I probably need BrummieJan to tell me what a Street Orderly Tender (Scay) is.
So nothing really conclusive there Christine.

On Lilian's birth cert her father John Clarke was a a)Glazier b) Journeyman.
On my dad's his father Ernest Babington was a Cycle polisher.

Hi Anthony,

I'm afraid you may never find out about the different fathers for the children.

It appears that they gave the name of the father on marriage cert as what they had been told because there was no father with them in 1911.

What was the occupation of John Babington, I seem to remember that was something similar, so Ellen could have given variations of that but as I said it's all speculation.

Christine

So was William John Clarke the same father of Lilian in 1903, her father was John Clarke on her birth certificate Profession: Glazier/Journeyman or is this yet another man in her mother Ellen's fertile imagination.

Was a journeyman like a travelling odd job man? If so didn't they sharpen knives etc? Could this be called a Grinder?

Who was the Ernest Babington recorded as the father on my father's birth certificate? Why was my father, born in 1910, between Lilian Clarke in 1903 and William Clarke in 1913, given the name Babington?

Mother Ellen is recorded on 1911 census as a widow with the surname Babangton, did she re-marry?

Lilian's granddaughter is still waiting for Ellen Kirby Clarke's birth certificate and Williams son is waiting for a copy of William's birth certificate.

Will we ever be sure who my grandparents were?

It's arrived,! the marriage certificate for William Clarke (born 1913 Birmingham): -

17 Nov 1936, William Clarke and Muriel Lilian Hughes. both age 23. Batchelor & Spinster. Professions: William - Pedal Viewer (Cycle Works) Muriel - Hand Press Operator. Residences: 4 Bk 19 Alfred Street, Handsworth & 197 Nineveh Rd Handsworth. Fathers: William John Clarke (deceased) & Elijah Hughes. Profession of Fathers: Grinder & General Labourer